FOC; highley overrated???? (and carbon vs woodies...)

[Jesse Peltan]

"Gives the EFOC me and advantage? I don't know....."  Yes EFOC gives you an advantage.  It's like shooting bigger fletchings, it's more forgiving.  But instead of adding drag to do that, it adds leverage and reduces drag, resulting in flatter trajectory.  The carbon itself recovers from paradox faster than wood but efoc carbon recovers a lot faster than low foc wood.

[Jeff Strubberg]

Very true, Terry.  I'm also fairly sure there's a diameter difference...yet another variable.

FD seemed fairly underwhelmed by the difference in penetration..I was pointing out that with that much weight drop, he should have seen LESS penetration..so don't be disappointed there wasn't a larger change.

[Flying Dutchman]

Ok, I'll try to post the pic again:
"And to give you guys an idea how our tournaments look like: her you see me in action and yes, it was hot! We always try to imitate real bowhunting as close as possible. The only thing is that our distances are bigger. This deer was at 25-30 yards. Just needed a single arrow(woodie,8.5% foc)to shoot it in the center-kill"

 http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7449/schijffa2large.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
 

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
 

Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Flying Dutchman,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.

I am not quite sure what you mean with this? To shoot the same point of impact? [/b]

I apologize. By that I meant that they hit the same at various distances, as opposed to one hitting lower than the other. [/b]

Now I understand, thanks! Yes, they hit the same.

[Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
 

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
 

Originally posted by Bjorn:
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?

My woodies are 12GPP and my carbons 9.4 [/b]

So you dropped 120-150 grains of arrow weight and got better penetration?


I'd say that's a huge vote for EFOC right there. [/b]

No, I wouldn't say that. My KE stays the same. I think that when the Ke stays the same, the penetration also stays the same. With lighter arrows the speed increase, but the mass is less, resulting in the smae KE as with lower speed and more weight.

i.e.: 6*4=24 and 3*8=24 also...

[Jeff Strubberg]

Flying,

Well, that's not how things shake out in every test I've observed.  Less weight means less penetration every time.  

Terry had it right, though.  The switch from wood to carbon is likely the largest part of the gain.

[Flying Dutchman]

I also think that the biggest gain is in the switch from carbon to wood, I totally agree!

But I am confused about penetration. For a 3D shooter it is not really imporatnt, as long as the arrow doesn't faal out of the target it's OK! I am not into physics, so please correct me if I am wrong... Less weight means higher speed and higher weight means less speed... I thought that penetration was a a result of combination of speed and weight????
Shortly said: the heigher the KE, the heigher the penetration???

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
First of all: I am a 3D shooter only. In the Netherlands, bowhunting is forbidden and illegal.

I started one year and a half ago with traditional archery. As on the most tournamants woodies only are permitted, I started with POC's. After a short while I started to build them myself. Did the upmost to end up with a FOC of 8,5% (9% is considered to be ideal) Ofcourse I took care that everything else fitted the bill too. I shoot very good with them. Won already some prices on some National tournaments.
Since they decided that for the Dutch National Traditional Championship carbon is allowed too, I started with carbon.
I shoot with a very light mildly R/D longbow, 38#@29",which is my drawlenght.
I ended up with Goldtip Entrada 15-35 Ultralights, which I bareshafted extensively till 35 yards. At their full lenght of 30" they needed a 125 grains fieldtip with the normal insert of 14.6 grains and a weight adapter of 20 grains. The adapters are very easily installed with the wrench, great system!
However, I ended up with a FOC of 20% and that's very close to EFOC.

I was worried how these arrows with their high FOC's would behave on tournaments, were we sometimes face distances of 70 yards, and were 50 yards is quite common.

I also heard that arrows with EFOCs would glance off less on targets and would be less sensitive for small branches and leaves.

I also changed my 16 strands FF string for a 6 strands ultra SBD string. Altogether I gained 20 fps in speed, shooting around 190 fps now. I also installed a bowquiver to reduce handshock and gain stability.

So far so good.

Than I started to practice with the carbons and to my astonishment, I didn't notice any difference in aiming. I expected the carbons with the EFOCs to hit the target lower, but I couldn't notice any difference. I shoot purely instinctive, split finger, and two eyes open, focusing on the target.I can even shoot my woodies and carbons through eachother, hitting the target every time, isn't that odd???

Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true.

Of course I can notice the difference between the slower flying wood (170 fps) or the fast flying carbons (190 fps) Woodies are way more forgiving were carbons take advantage of every small form-mistake you make.

And now some myth-busting         :

I shot three important tournaments with them and as glancing off the targets concerned, carbons with EFOC do it just as easy as woodies with a 9% FOC.

As for sensitivity for small branches and leaves: I can't notice any difference between my woodies and carbons. Carbons with EFOCs get deflected too!

As for deeper penetration: on an ethafoam 220 pack my carbons penetrate in the best case about 1/3 inch deeper. For accurate measurement I really shot the different arrows very close to each other at the same distances.

As for consequent shooting and deadly acurate shooting: carbons all the way, as long you don't make any mistakes in your form. In that case you will get punished hard.

As for staying in one piece: indeed, carbon won't break. However, when a carbon arrow hits a thick branche and bounces away, or bounnce off the target dissapearing with a speed of over the 190 fps in the woods, you'd be most luckey to find it back again. On the three tournaments I lost two carbons. I would say I loose as an average one woodie per tournament.

I know I won't be concerned for a too high FOC anymore, getting the right spine is much more important I think.

Just wanted to share this with my fellow-tradgangers.....

imho, yer strictly talking from a targeteer's perspective and yer not taking into consideration bowhunting, which IS different and what trad gang is all about.

everything in your above post is about TARGET archery, not bowhunting.  i was a target archery junkie for nearly 20 years, lots of naa and nfaa tournaments over those years with freestyle fingers recurves (lotsa hoyt bows).  

a lot of what you say is very apropos to the target scene only and has little or nothing to do with bowhunting reality.

penetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal.  think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp.  that's it, period.   leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good.

EVERYTHING about archery is an 'experiment of one' - your form as it applies to your tackle.  form is everything, and you are unique.  it's nice to talk techie but that ain't really where it's at.

so yeah, penetration is about weight and speed (and sharp points, too).  but that's all about hunting and not target archery.  

same speed arrows but different weights?  weight wins the penetration test.

why is this target archery thread still here?

[SveinD]

I've found that EFOC is tougher through bushes and foilage than my non-FOC arrows when out stumping. I went out yesterday for the first time since September, and was surprised when my GT EFOC plowed through Pine branches, right after my non-FOC GT repelled off them!

[Roughrider]

Jesse,

yes, tuning does trump FOC, and about anything else.  The arrow has to be tuned to the bow.  

I disagree though that an extremely light FOC is not unstable - if 90% of the arrow weight were in the rear 1" of the shaft, I don't think it would be very stable in flight, regardless of the tune.  Same for my example of outrageous FOC.  From my experience, there becomes a point of diminishing returns - though I don't know if it's possible to get too much FOC with todays materials without going to a 600 grain+ tip and  an arrow weighing over 1000 grains.  

I shoot 30" Full Metal Jacket 300's with 250 - 300 grain heads and they fly great.  I end up with about a 700 grain arrow that gives me 10 gpp - a set up I like.  may try more FOC just to see what it does, but have shot through the last 5 deer I shot with that setup - and into the ground 20 yards beyond the last two.

[Bjorn]

"why is this target archery thread still here?"

Ha! Ha! You teasing us Rob?

[Richie Nell]

Rob,

 

penetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal. think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp. that's it, period. leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good.

Could you please expound on that.  I know nothing about the target archery scene.  

What is a target archer's goal?  

Why would you say low FOC for targets?

Thanks

[Jesse Peltan]

"penetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal. think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp. that's it, period. leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good."  Efoc has advantages in both so saying to stay in the 7-9% foc range doesn't make sense.  Efoc is not all about penetration, but also about stability, how forgiving the arrow is, and flatter trajectory.  All which help both target shooters and bowhunters.  In fact penetration is just a small part of efoc.  Most of the benefits are shared by both target shooters and bowhunters.

Roughrider, Foc is like efficiency.  You want your bow to be 100% efficient(50%foc arrows) but it's impossible.  A more efficient bow will be quieter, faster, and have less handshock than a less efficient bow.  The only problem comes with how you get that efficiency.  If you use an extremely reflexed riser to do so you give up stability and defeat the purpose.  If you add too much weight to the front of an arrow it's out of tune and won't fly well defeating the purpose of having the arrow fly better with more foc.  You're right about the foc being so low that no matter what you do it won't fly well but not about the foc being "too high".  It's like having a bow that's "too efficient".  Stability comes from the center of drag being behind the center of mass.  There's two ways to accomplish that, adding more drag to the back or moving the balance point more forward.  If the foc is so low that the center of drag isn't behind it or only slightly behind the balance point, the arrow will be unstable.  If the foc is so high the center of drag will be way behind the center of mass so the arrow will just stabilize faster.  Foc CANNOT be too high.  If you had shafts that weighed 20grains but were stiff enough to tune for a 400-600grain point the arrows would be super stable not unstable.  If you want, pm me with the detials of your arrow setup(gpi etc) and I'll see what would give you similar arrow weight and more foc.

Flying Dutchman, penetration comes from momentum and drag.  Less drag or more momentum results in more penetration.  Kinetic energy is how much force the bow imparts on the arrow not a measure of penetration.  This is why the ke is so similar for both arrows.  Momentum is the measure of how much force it takes to stop something, drag is the measure of stopping force.  When you put them together you get the distance it takes to stop something or penetration.

[Ground Hunter]

I'm going to save all of this thread.  When they start shooting deer in the olympics - I'll read it then.  H

[Rob DiStefano]

a target (fita, ifaa, naa, nfaa) archer doesn't care a fig about penetration.  it's an ultimate consistency game.  the form rules are more rigid than hunting in order to promote better uber consistency.  hunter's don't have the luxury of standing upright, with vertical bow, careful foot stance and timed draw/anchor/hold/aim/release.

since formal target game venue marks are at distances waaaaaay further than practical hunting distances, arrow tracking is important for both stability and wind penetration considerations (not target penetration).  hence, the 9% nibbs instead of 7% that were popular in the 60's & 70's.  some fita archers go much higher, and their bows are in the hunting holding weight class.  

imo, designing and building an arrow for formal target archery is lots different than that for a hunting arrow.

while some fita archers are holding good hunting weights of 50#, most are in the high 30's to mid 40's.  reaching 50 to 90 meters with low trajectory is the name of the game, then add in consistent accuracy in outdoor weather conditions.  with a 40# holding weight, you want the arrow speed needed to reach out and touch that gold with as low a trajectory as possible.  8-10gpp,  for an arrow weight of 320-400 grains - not exactly built for hunting penetration even if the foc is above 15%.

as in the topic starter's case, there are archers who treat 3d as a formal archery event and will use 35-40# bows ... some even go the freestyle route with a stickbow.  i see no benefit of efoc for that kinda archery.  imo, once you get up to around 15% foc, that arrow is gonna track just fine and, in my own testing, i found no flight benefit of rebalancing the shaft for more foc.    

if you treat a 3d event as hunting practice, then none of this thread matters at all.  use yer hunting holding weight bow and heavy arrows with whatever foc floats yer boat and have at it.  as you should.  because you're a trad bowhunter and not a target archer.

[Richie Nell]

Thanks.

It appears the major difference is shooting distance.  
I still would think that high FOC would benefit the target archer as the arrow penetrates the air at those long distances.

I was just thinking that no target archer on the planet wants to be more accurate than "we" as bowhunters should want to be and low FOC is not the best accuracy for me.  

That is why it's odd to me that people shoot their "3D" bows at a hunting type 3d shoot.

[Flying Dutchman]

For us, 3D shoots are a simulation of the hunt. It's sad we are not allowed to hunt here. I personally see such 3D shoots in the woods as a good practice for hunting. We too selden have the luxury of standing right-up with a vertical bow. The tournament builders always do their best to give you a shot that is as difficult as possible.

As for time-frame: on the last tournament I was, there was a so-called hunting trail. In a natural mace (small trees/bushes) you had to find three different targets (all animals) and try to shoot them. The time you were given for that was only 45 seconds. I can tell you that wasn't easy!

I train as much as I can, because next year I want to go to the south France, where you can actually hunt with the bow.
I see 3D shoots as an excellent preparation.

But I am very well aware of the fact that hunting is something different then target archery. But before I go on a real hunt, I want to know how EFOC flies for me.....

[Rob DiStefano]

fd - if yer simulating hunting, why with a 38# holding weight?

[Flying Dutchman]

Since I shoot only for two years now. I've been told it is not wise to overbow yourself and to start with 35 lbs. New bow of 45# is already ordered.