Any bowyers honor second owner in warranty period?

[LBR]

The reality also is that sometimes customers abuse bows: shoot super light arrows, don't string them properly, hot car trunks, etc. etc.

Sure that can happen--word gets around about those people too, and a bowyer should be able to tell if a delamination or crack was due to a dry-fire or a dry glue joint.  When you have gravel imbedded in the riser and the customer says "I don't know what happened, it just broke" it wouldn't be too smart to take that person's word for it. You can be courteous without being stupid.  In my experience, the scammer backs off immediately once you call their bluff.

One of the best owners in the business (now retired) once told me about his bows "If it doesn't have tire tracks on it, we'll take care of it".  That's customer service, and it kept him piled up with orders for something like 40 years, until he retired.

My experience, although limited to only 15 or so years as a retailer, is the scam artists are few and far between.  I can think of as many scam bowyers as I can scam customers--maybe more.  I can only think of one that is still in business, and it looks to be a sinking ship (as it should be, IMO).

Like you noted, there's a lot of competition out there.  Who are customers more likely to go to--someone who is confident enough in their work to warranty it regardless if it changes hands, or if it changes hands the warranty is immediately null and  void?  The bowyer is money ahead in the long run by taking care of the customer under even questionable circumstances, even if the bow changes hands.  My opinion of course.

Again, I don't know the details of the particular case mentioned.  I don't know the guy that started the thread, I don't know who built the bow, and I don't know the circumstances.  Just stating a case in general.

[cbCrow]

Chad, I can't help being confused by your last port. Your use of the words reality and technically are in the wrong spots. If you substitute "in reality" where technically is than you would be right. I say this because a warranty is a real, defenseable,lawful document not a technicality! The only question I still have a problem with: is the guy who sold him the bow technically responsible, or is just the bowyer. You can't have both ways because I say the previous owner may have some liability here, if he knew anything. I have no horse in this race but wonder about motives of some.  

[DesertDude]

Bob, Recalls happen for a reason, If you found that something you did was causing bows to fail, why should it matter who owns it? I remember you posting a problem you were having and offered to fix it. Was that only if the bow was with the first owner?

[JC]

A not-so-hypothetical example: Let's say you design a 52" bow specifically to maximize the draw length of those with 27" or under draw lengths. Let's say you sell 150 of those bows directly to customers who order from you. Over time, for whatever reason, let's say 25 of them end up in the hands of owners who draw 28+". The bows start failing over time...some quickly (for those guys with 30" draws), some longer but all 25 fail. 25 guys come back to the bowyer and all want their bows replaced or repaired for free. Bowyer has a 100% policy prior to this, so either the bowyer chooses not to honor all the claims or he's waaay out of pocket to the point where he's going to have to change it anyway. Danged if you do, danged if you don't. That's not a bad bowyer, that's not a bad design, that's simply an uninformed customer of the 2nd or 3rd or whatever hand bow.

With such a relatively small # of custom bowyers out there and such a very large # of customers statistically there will be a lot more abused bows than bad bowyers...from the previous admission that "word gets around". That happens a lot faster and reaches a lot more ears about the 50 bowyers that it does with the 50,000+ customers.

Again, I don't know it that's the case on this one or not, but in general it's irresponsible to vilify any bowyer over a relatively small number of denied warranty claims or even unhappy customers (relative to the number of bows he has in circulation).

[LBR]

Maybe technically isn't the proper term--perhaps "legally" or something similar would be better?

Either way, the reality is : who expects a practically new bow to crack?  You don't buy a practically new truck and expect the engine to blow.  On the other hand, if the bow (or the truck) is several years old, you know up front that a problem is a possibility.  That was my point.

The guy that sold him the bow may have known about the problem, might have even caused it, but is he responsible?  Legally, I'd say not--couldn't prove it if he did know anything, and I'm assuming he didn't offer a warranty.  Morally, I'd say yes.

This is where, IMO, the bowyer should step up.  Send him the bow, and if after inspection he determines (honestly of course) that the failure is likely due to moisture content, a dry glue joint, or anything else that could be considered a material or workmanship failure then the bow should be fixed or replaced free of charge.  If it's obvious the bow was abused, then the bowyer should be able to determine that and let the fellow know the details, so he can try to hash it out with the seller.

No horse in this race for me either, I just hate to see someone get a raw deal--it's a blight on all of us that are in this business.  I do have a bit of experience to base my opinions on--15 or so years with a retail archery business,which includes selling hundreds of bows and dealing with some warranty work--half or more of it taken care of even though it was outside the warranty.  I even got one bow fixed for $50 when the bowyer wanted $250 for the same repair--and it was obviously the bowyer's mistake!  I did buy the bow second-hand though, so no warranty.

Like I said, I think I can name as many or more con bowyers I've learned of over the years than I can think of customers (thousands upon thousands) that have  tried to con me.  Almost all of them have been exposed and/or are out of business.

[LBR]

If a scenario like the one JC presented were to ever happen, to me it's a simple answer.  Overdrawing a bow = abuse, and shouldn't be covered.  Ignorance is no excuse.

What do you do when a bowyer who has a following puts the screws to you for $1,000?  Should it depend on the people that like him?  Should you just be quiet about it, because the guy has a lot of people that really like him that are well known, or would you feel obligated to warn your fellow archer lest they be the next victim?  

Say you remain quiet, but then start learning there's a whole lot of folks just like you out there.  Now what?

What percentage of customers is a bowyer (or any business owner) allowed to cheat before it can be made public?  1/1000?  1/100?  1/10?

[LBR]

...it's irresponsible to vilify any bowyer over a relatively small number of denied warranty claims or even unhappy customers (relative to the number of bows he has in circulation).  

I just can't agree with that, at least if I'm reading it right.  Chek-Mate has literally thousands upon thousands of happy customers and bows in circulation.  I not only shoot their bows, I have an intimate business relationship with them and consider Marc (the bowyer) to be a good friend.

That being said, if I were to find out he had gotten into the habit of intentionally cheating customers--1 out of 10 or 1 out of 10,000--I'd take my money elsewhere, and I'd warn everyone I could about it.

On the flip side, if he thought I was doing the same, he'd yank my dealer status so fast it would make my head swim.  

Maybe I just misunderstood your post?

[JC]

Originally posted by LBR:
If a scenario like the one JC presented were to ever happen, to me it's a simple answer.  Overdrawing a bow = abuse, and shouldn't be covered.  Ignorance is no excuse.

Exactly Chad. And it has happened, more than once with more than one bowyer I know.

 

Originally posted by LBR:
Wat do you do when a bowyer who has a following puts the screws to you for $1,000?  Should it depend on the people that like him?  Should you just be quiet about it, because the guy has a lot of people that really like him that are well known, or would you feel obligated to warn your fellow archer lest they be the next victim?  

Say you remain quiet, but then start learning there's a whole lot of folks just like you out there.  Now what?

What percentage of customers is a bowyer (or any business owner) allowed to cheat before it can be made public?  1/1000?  1/100?  1/10?

I certainly wouldn't remain quiet; by word of mouth take every opportunity to warn those that ASK about said bowyer. I wouldn't go whining about it in "public", and I wouldn't do it in private unless the conversation came up specifically. That's what they call "class" where I come from.  Simply because "made public" is a black hole.

What if the situation you present is compounded by a bunch of guys who really don't know the whole story, the real entire story from both sides, who don't care to hear the other side of the coin because they have their mind made up? Now you've got a bunch of "public" bashing by one group with an axe to grind. In my opinion, "Public" ridicule of the bowyer would have to happen through a 3rd party...presented enough evidence of dubious business practices and something will happen. That happens on Tradgang through admin, in the real world through the better business bureau, and in the courts of law, typically in small claims court. Otherwise, there is no way to know if it's 10 guys with a real problem, or one that has whipped 9 more into a fury without all the facts known by everyone who reads their "public" statements.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Bob Morrison]

Warranty is the warranty and that is the way it is, Original Owner Only..
Which really isn't a problem being we are not taking any new customers for custom bows and plan on taking care of current customer for years to come. So I guess there is one less custom bowyer you all have to choose from. It's a shame and you will lose more, most will get tired of this type logic and find there is an easier way to make a living. Some should not be in business anyway, No Liability  insurance and don't pay there Fed Ex. Taxes.

[JC]

Originally posted by LBR:

That being said, if I were to find out he had gotten into the habit of intentionally cheating customers--1 out of 10 or 1 out of 10,000--I'd take my money elsewhere, and I'd warn everyone I could about it.  [/b]

Yep, if I had proof and knew for certain both sides of the story and it was plain cut and dry cheating, I agree completely. I would warn everyone that asked about them by word of mouth. Seldom however are all the facts in before folks jump to conclusions.

And if they pulled your dealership, would or should they "publicly" proclaim you are no longer a dealer and they did so because you are crooked? I think not. I'll bet they've got too much class for that.

[LBR]

in the real world through the better business bureau, and in the courts of law, typically in small claims court.

It ain't that easy.  I have a friend, who is in law enforcement, who got a raw deal not too long ago.  State laws make a big  difference in what you can or can't do, and going across state lines even further complicates it.  In his case, he's stuck--for now anyway.  Good thing for him is, as a LEO, he has other means.

I guess I just have no class.  I won't wait for 'ol Joe to come up to me and ask "what do you know about this specific bow?"  I've been in situations where I asked "Why didn't you tell me that sooner?????"--could have saved me a lot of money, headache, and even heartache.  I see it as a "Do unto others" situation.  I'd want to be warned without having to go down the line asking every single individual.  If Joe gets on a message board and says "Can anyone tell me about this bow", I'm most likely going to tell them just what I know.  If it's someone I know, I'll definately tell them--via pm if it's not board-appropriate.

I understand where message boards have a fine line to walk.  I've helped moderate on one since before TG came into existence.  We tend to let all the good word in, and keep all the bad experiences out.  That's not giving folks anywhere near "both sides of the story", but I know you really don't have much choice.  

On the other hand, individuals can share experiences in private--IMO you should give your fellow archer a "heads-up" when you learn they could be making a very expensive mistake.

I also understand agendas.  That's when it's up to the idividual to separate the wheat from the chaff.  If they care about the purchase, they will do a little homework.  It's usually not that hard to check someone out--both the bowyer, and the people giving advice.

Again though, I'm not referring to this specific incident--I still don't know squat about it, who is involved, etc.  Just putting out my opinion, based on my experience.

[JC]

Originally posted by LBR:
It ain't that easy.  I have a friend, who is in law enforcement, who got a raw deal not too long ago.  State laws make a big  difference in what you can or can't do, and going across state lines even further complicates it.  In his case, he's stuck--for now anyway.  Good thing for him is, as a LEO, he has other means.

That's interesting, I wouldn't have guessed an LEO would have had that much problem...I know I haven't. If you did the transaction over the internet, and you have evidence, presenting the evidence to the internet fraud department of the local LEO of the crook has tended to do very well for me. Paying by postal money order and having it shipped by post is even better...Postal inspectors get it done...at least from my experience.


If Joe gets on a message board and says "Can anyone tell me about this bow", I'm most likely going to tell them just what I know.  If it's someone I know, I'll definately tell them--via pm if it's not board-appropriate. Seems to me like you are saying exactly the same thing I did, with just as much class as I think possible. The guy asked about the bow or bowyer specifically, you pm'd him...same thing I would. But you didn't start a post talking bad about the bowyer and you didn't post a public response bashing the bowyer, you did it privately. Or am I misunderstanding?

On the other hand, individuals can share experiences in private--IMO you should give your fellow archer a "heads-up" when you learn they could be making a very expensive mistake. Absolutely...and again, I thought that's what I said.

If they care about the purchase, they will do a little homework.  It's usually not that hard to check someone out--both the bowyer, and the people giving advice. Again we agree.

I still don't know squat about it, who is involved, etc.  Just putting out my opinion, based on my experience. Hey look, we agree again!  

[LBR]

Ok--whew--I just misunderstood. My bad.

[JC]

No bad, just different margins on the same page. Communicating about things folks are passionate about is often not the easiest thing to do.

[Two Dogs]

I agree w/ Jacob,a warranty is a warranty & should be for the bow regardless of who owns it,IMO.Any bowyer worth their salt would stand behind that,not hide behind a play of words!As far as buying used for the sake of cost I disagree, I for one think it's ludicrous to wait on a list 1-2 yrs. & maybe more for a bow. Lets face it you can't tell me these "highend' bowyers can't put out at least 2 bows a wk.if not more! Do the math their making a pretty good living.Bottom line,stand behind your product! if not for your customers where would you be.

[cbCrow]

Great thread! Thanks to everyone who participated. This only proves to me the concept of ; we may not agree, but we can dicuss it rationally. Thanks again.    

 
"An open mind is the doorway to Knowledge"....Me

[JC]

Warranty is a warranty...and if the bowyer clearly says for original purchaser only, that's the warranty. No "play on words", but the words are specific for a reason. If a bowyer's warranty doesn't specify, then yes, they should warranty the bow no questions asked, indefinitely. Seen a warranty lately with no stipulations? I know I haven't.

If you don't want to wait, by all means take your money somewhere else. Some are willing to wait to get exactly what they want, hence the "custom" in custom bow. And they are not bitter about the wait, because everything comes at a price...you want a specific way, you'll have to wait in line like everyone else.

Show me a rich bowyer. None of them are doing it to get rich...make a living yes, but they aren't rolling in it by any means.

Is the customer the guy who originally bought the bow, or every single guy that has owned the bow? How is a bowyer to know how many idiots abusing the bow there were between the original purchaser and the poor innocent guy at the end of the bow's life who's stuck with a blown bow?

[Two Dogs]

So Joe, let me get this right,original owner is not a play of words to protect the bowyer? when this bow is only 6mos. old? regardless, stand behind your product! & in your post "how many "Idiots" bought this bow".Are you saying that people buying used are idiots? nows who's playing w/ words? & your a moderater? It's called tunnel vision. A couple K or more a week? I'd say thats pretty good in these economic times

[JC]

1) No it's not a "play on words", the words are there for a reason and specific. The bowyer is not saying anything unclear like "it's warranted for a little while"...ambiguous and meaningless. "For the original purchaser" is clear as crystal and not a "play" at all.

2) Read carefully, I said "idiots abusing the bow". The implication is "guys abusing the bow are idiots" when read in context and in it's entirety. Tunnel vision is wanting to read something into a post that isn't there.

3) So you know a bowyer clearing a couple of K a week...after income taxes (which he pays double since he's self employed), after fed taxes (which he pays because it's tied to hunting), after liability insurance (which he carries to protect himself from accidents caused either by his own workmanship/materials or improper customer care), rent or mortgage for his space, tool/equipment costs, materials, and most of all time? Which one? I'm pretty close to 3, two that run with the big dogs, and they ain't making that for sure.

I have bought plenty of used bows, didn't abuse them but I bought them used my own risk; informed and aware of the warranty if any. If something happened (and I've had a few of those) I went humbly and respectfully to the bowyer, asking if there was anything he could do to help me out. I've gotten more than I expected with that approach.

[Bjorn]

A bowyers reputation is far more important than his warranty any day.
Once you start dealing with paper and policies and not people you are going to get &^^%$#!