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Author Topic: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...  (Read 416 times)

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« on: June 17, 2010, 04:01:00 PM »
Terry asked me to repost an old topic that I authored over a decade ago on another forum, as he thought that topic may be of interest or beneficial to some of the participants here. Since I am the original author of the topic, no one on that forum.
____________________

FIELD TESTERS NEEDED. This is much easier to do than it may sound/read, but after you have done it once it is very easy if you have a tape measure and a perminent marker.
After some research in the physics of sound I came to learn a little about string harmonics.
Sound has several factors that effect it...string tention, amplitude (slang - loudness), frequency (slang - pitch), duration. These things are all based on physics and math. It turns out that a strings "harmonics" includes several notes. The loudest note being in the center, the next 1/3, the next 1/4, and on and on with the numbers that are divisible by 2 or 3. Which is where we, according to a professional musician that I discussed string harmonics with, should place our siliencers if we wish to quiet the bow. I tried some of his suggestions and it seemed to work well, so I thought I would share some of his suggestions with the readers here to see if others noticed any improvement.

Obviously, we don' want to put siliencers in the center of the serving, so the next best spot would be a 1/3 of the way from the last contact point of the bow. By "last contact point" you don't measure your bow or your entire string. You ONLY MEASURE the amount of string that does not touch the bow when the bow is stong...measuring from "contact point to contact point." I find 1/3rds to still closer to the center than I need as I tend to shoot quiet longbows most of the time, but if I was shooting a recurve type bow that was really noisy I might try it there. My favorite spot for a longbow is 1/4 (the next multiple of 2) of the string length between contact points. These are where the notes are created. Further to the tip reduces high pitch sounds, closer to the center reduces the low pitch sounds. Low pitch sounds (low frequency wave length) travel the farthest.
Well, in my BRIEF testing this holds true and I have found this spot to work great and I would like to hear what those of you who are willing to try it find.

TO DO THIS and have it work, it must be done as accurately as possible. To be accurate...

A. Measure the length of the string between the last contact points of the bow.
B. Divide that length by 4 (or 3 if you have a noisy bow).
C. Measure calculated 1/4 distance (or 1/3 if you have a noisy bow) from the last contact point (when the bow is strung) and put a mark with a perminent marker. (If you have a very noisy bow, you might wish to try the 1/3 spot, in that case devide by 3).
D. Unstring the bow and place the siliencer in the string so it goes in between the strands, don't just tie it on, but open the string up. Have it positioned so the CENTER of the siliencer is on top of the mark.
E. String the bow up, double check the position of the siliencer, and go shoot. If you have dewaxed bowstring material for a siliencer (wax can be removed with acetone and a paper towel) or a yarn type siliencer, they will tie themselves in after a 100 shots or so and you won't need to tie them in. If you have catwhiskers, I suggest tying them in with some serving material. Beaver balls and other such fur types will stay where you put them, but are a little more difficult to "center."

Shoot, enjoy, and let us know what you find.
Looking to hear from you with your results...Maybe no more guessing on where to put those siliencers.

I don't think it will be a cure all for a very noisy bow, but it may help more so than othe methods and is certainly worth a try. The reason it won't be a "cure all" on a recurve is because a recurve not only has string harmonics, but also limb slap.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 04:37:00 PM »
Hey Lee--good to see you posting--are you still in the dog biz?

I remember that info. from several years ago.  I start out at the 1/3 points, but from what I can tell there is usually a little adjusting required to find the "sweet spot", due to variations in release, tiller, etc.  That's one of the main reasons I prefer cat whiskers, tied on around the string--they are easily adjustable.

Along with silencer placement, I've noticed a lot of people don't realize there are lots of other factors to consider to get a bow quiet.  Tuning the string (brace height), fine tuning the silencers, release, nock fit, arrow weight, arrow spine--they all work to gether to reduce (or increase) noise.

It seems that folks are paying a bit more attention to their strings these days--along with the search for that "magic" bow, arrow, broadhead, etc. there seems to be a search for a "magic" string.  I'm afraid it's as elusive as all those other magic items though....there's just no alternative to good old fashioned tuning.

Chad

Offline KentuckyWolf

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 05:04:00 PM »
Ken at Black Widow has been saying 1/4 and 1/3 for many many years.
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Offline vtmtnman

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 05:05:00 PM »
Everyone should read this...I see WAY too many folks with silencers shoved right down towards the ends of the string.It will do something there but not everything.Wrap the ends of the string (for recurves) with some yarn and lose the brass nocking point for a tied one and it can do wonders for a loud bow.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 05:36:00 PM »
Quote
...and lose the brass nocking point for a tied one and it can do wonders for a loud bow.
 
That's a new one on me.  I've used both, a lot, and there's no difference in noise on the bows I've shot.

Offline vtmtnman

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 05:48:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LBR:
 
Quote
...and lose the brass nocking point for a tied one and it can do wonders for a loud bow.
 
That's a new one on me.  I've used both, a lot, and there's no difference in noise on the bows I've shot. [/b]
Well it's not a new one on me.YMMV.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 06:07:00 PM »
Any idea how a brass nock point is supposed to affect noise, vs. a tied on one?

Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 06:10:00 PM »
Hey Lee--I know you've done a bit of noise testing--any input on the brass nockset?

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 07:03:00 PM »
I don't use brass nocks. Even when I get a bow that has one on it, it goes in the trash. I always tied my nocking points on.

BTW, the dog business is going strong  http://www.chimerakennels.com

I am still spinning some strings as well...but now I just stick with dacron for old bows and dynaflight97 for newer bows. I still only make 3 ply strings.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 07:12:00 PM »
Any idea why a brass nockset would change noise?

I use 'em both myself--depends on my mood and how much time I have.  Never damaged a glove or tab with one, can't tell any difference one way or the other.

Chad

Offline Soilarch

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 09:57:00 PM »
Chad, I've never compared them...so I honestly "do not know" ...but a brass nockset would weight more than a tied one. More weight...more inertia...more "amplitude" to the string oscillating...more noise?

It's all theory...and it may not be sound theory (pun intended)


The heavier the overall string the less difference a couple grains in the center of the string would have. Maybe it doesn't effect your strings but does vtmtnman's if his are generally lighter in overall weight?


LEE!!!!!!!!!!  For the first time in my life I really really really want a pit!  I come from a farming family and I've looked at a lot of different breeding "philosophy" for livestock...I like your approach. (I just skimmed it mind you.)

Out of plain, naive, innocent curiosity have you any experience with your dogs being used primarily as livestock guardians?
Micah 6:8

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 12:49:00 AM »
They will guard what they kill. Seriously, I would never recommend one of my dogs as agricultural type live stock guardians. They have been used as catch dogs on hogs before though, but their primary purpose is to serve as family companion guard dogs. Maybe if a dog was raised with livestock, but I wouldn't bet on it. Also, my dogs have strong bonds with their human "family," while most livestock guardians are going to be more independent.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 01:09:00 AM »
I'll try to  remember to weigh a brass nockset tomorrow, and enough serving to tie on a nockset.  A brass nockset weighs very little--I don't think there will be enough of a difference to matter, but I'll let the scale decide.

I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck.  After nearly 20 years of making strings, and doing all sorts of research on them to make them better/quieter, that was the first time I'd ever heard anyone say a brass nockset was noisier.

Now I want to know why it was noisier, how it was determined to be noisier, if anyone else has had similar results...

Offline vtmtnman

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 05:12:00 AM »
Metal on the string will be noisier because it weighs more than a tied point.I do exactly what Lee does and trash them when I get a bow with one on it.Didn't realize we needed to make a huge issue out of this.
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Offline ckanous

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2010, 06:22:00 AM »
The only experience I have had was on my Ben Pearson Colt. I had a tied on nock point and its was coming loose so I was in a hurry to shoot and cut it off and put a brass one on. The brass one was louder when I shot but I think it had something to do with the arrow nock coming off the string during the shot, tied a new point on and it went away. Always puzzled me what really cause the noise, would you really hear the arrow nock rake off the string nock? I had great arrow flight and both nocks were at the same spot, puzzled me. Like I said it was a simple fix just tied a new one back on. Gonna try this on a couple other bows now and see if there is a difference.

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2010, 08:06:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lee Dogman:
. The reason it won't be a "cure all" on a recurve is because a recurve not only has string harmonics, but also limb slap.
And that's what got me to develop BowHush back then....

Lee, good to see this post again after all these years.   :thumbsup:
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Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2010, 11:13:00 AM »
ckanous, when you get most testing done I'd like to hear the results.

Things like this are a big deal to me. I am always looking to learn more about the sport, especially when it comes to strings.  If I hear or see something that I've never experienced or even heard of, naturally I want to learn more.  Strings are my passion and livelyhood.

I just weighed several individual brass nocksets.  They came in at a whopping 4 grains each, consistently.  Then I weighed a 6" section of .024 Halo serving--it tipped the scales at 2 grains (with no super glue applied).  For a comparison, your typical .22 LR bullet weighs 36 grains.

Some folks may get a noise difference with a brass nock vs. a tied on nock, but it's not due to a weight difference.  It's not a constant either, because I get no noticeable difference in noise between the two, and to date (after countless hours of discussing strings with thousands of people) there's been two people who say they have experienced this.  This tells me it's an isolated incidence, and brass nocksets in general aren't the culprit.  Maybe the way it was put on, a "bad" nockset, or something else--I have no idea.  I would, however, like to find out.

As I said, strings are my passion and my livelyhood.  When I send out a string, I include a brass nockset with it, for the customer's convenience.  If they were causing noise, I'd send a section of nock tying thread instead.

I have heard of folks that won't use a brass nockset because of wear on their glove or tab.  The solution, I've learned, is use a quality nockset (I like Saunders) and a quality pair of nocking pliers so you don't have any sharp edges.  I used a glove for years and years, and the last 2 or 3 I've been using a tab--no wear and tear from a brass nockset at all.

It might not get a second glance from some folks, but I like to get to the bottom of claims about products I use, sell, and promote.  When I see a claim that goes against everything I know and have experienced, I start digging.  

I've seen claims of flemish strings causing bow limbs to twist.  That myth was thouroughly decimated.  I've seen warranties voided if you didn't use endless strings.  I believe that one was later changed, in one case anyway.  I've seen warranties voided if you didn't use dacron strings--pretty common at one time, not so common now.  I've seen warranties voided if you DID use a dacron string--still haven't figured that one out.  

Someone could write a book about all the myths and fables floating around just about strings.  I like to get to the bottom of it, and separate the facts from the fiction.  It not only satisfies my curiosity, but helps me provide better service and a better product to my customers.

Chad

Offline olddogrib

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 07:06:00 PM »
Here's something else to watch. I was blaming the increase in noise from my bows on my switch to a 3 under release, which I know is not unusual.  I also knew my nock fit on my strings was tighter than I like, but when I switched to new strings with a proper nock fit the problem was solved.  I had no idea nock fit could make that much difference.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2010, 07:08:00 PM »
Yep--that's a big one that a lot of folks don't know about.  It can affect tuning as well.

Chad

Offline PowDuck

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Re: Here is an OLD topic on quieting down a bow...
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2010, 09:43:00 PM »
Chad and others, thanks for all your input here. Very interesting thread.
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