Classic "D" Shape....How Much Performance Do You Give Up?

[vermonster13]

Efficiency will carry across all arrow weights in a solid design.

[Cutty47]

Vermonster13, James Wrenn, and Carbon Caster are right about heavy weight arrows...BUT...

...heavy weight arrows WILL narrow the performance gap between a less efficient bow and a more efficient bow...

[MikeC]

Originally posted by Carbon Caster:
Mike,

Sid's carbon isn't in the core and there is NO glass over the wood veneer.  He said he only loses a VERY tiny bit of performance and seems to gain some quietness as James says as well as LOTS OF PRETTY factor.  

I am with James on the heavy arrow theory as well.

I didn't know they are glass free.  I agree though the carbon isn't pretty but I was never one to buy into pretty bows.  My DAS Master is 100% flat black, just the way I wanted it.  I do agree with the heavy arrow theory also.  That being said I prefer to shoot a light fast and flat carbon arrow with a sharp cut-on-contact broadhead.  I shoot for 8 to 9 grains per pound with my DAS.  My Sheepeater Spirit does just fine with the same arrows.

[KodiakBob]

Define performance, the IBO longbow class world championship was won with a "D" bow, so I guess the user got all of the "performance" he wanted. I would rather have a bow that hits the target everyday than one that is fastest if I ever shoot it thru a chrono.

[R H Clark]

I've shot some of the fastest RD longbows in the world and they were NOT less accurate than a slower bow.

[Emmons]

Normally I would not get into this discussion and I agree what has been said so far.  There are some bows made with modern material that maintain the classic shape that perform very well.  Also seem to have been cleared up about Sids use of wood over the carbon.

Ok time to stir the pot a little, with the fastest little arrow is the fastest heavy arrow.  Here are some numbers directly off of Pete Wards website.  I really like his review and I think he does a very good job.  You can see the the ACS is the fastest with lighter arrows, but the Border's is faster with a heavy arrow and 5 pounds less draw weight.  Please help me understand this.

Bow #1 ACS CX 3p.  54# @ 28"
460 grain arrow 203 fps
530 grain arrow 188 fps
660 grain arrow 170 fps

Bow #2 ACS CX 3p.  50# @ 28"
450 grain arrow 198 fps
530 grain arrow 181 fps
660 grain arrow 165 fps

Bow #3 ACS CX 1p. 50# @ 28"
444 grain arrow 203 fps
557 grain arrow 178 fps
636 grain arrow 174 fps

Bow #3 Border Griffon GL 49# @ 28"
412 grain arrow 197 fps
454 grain arrow 189 fps
668 grain arrow 171 fps

[James Wrenn]

You are right Cutty.That is why you hear the talk of a certain bow or type handling a heavy arrow best.It is simply because they are not effectiant enough for the lighter weight arrows.The better bow will shoot all arrow weights best.As the weight goes up the percentages are just closer.Slow bows need heavy arrows.

[James Wrenn]

Bowhunterinchilie I have no idea.I do know if you look at the draw curve the Border stacks after 27" and gains 4lbs to 28" compaired to a much smoother 2lb gain of the Adcocks.I know which one I had rather shoot.  

[bentpole]

Alot of good info right here Nala.I sent you an e-mail.

[Curveman]

Originally posted by James Wrenn:
You are right Cutty.That is why you hear the talk of a certain bow or type handling a heavy arrow best.It is simply because they are not effectiant enough for the lighter weight arrows.The better bow will shoot all arrow weights best.As the weight goes up the percentages are just closer.Slow bows need heavy arrows.

I don't buy it. Sid's bows are anything but slow (see above) but Sid would tell you anyway his goal is not to make the fastest bow but to hit that best intersect of speed and forgiveness. He could reflex his bow more like the CX but he'd move off that intersect. He has also said in interviews that in his opinion: "longbows should look like longbows" so there is a committment to a certain style as well. A more recurve like longbow might be more "efficient" by definition but a "heavier arrow faster" sounds just damn DEADLY to me! How can a bow flying a HEAVIER arrow FASTER be LESS efficient?! I am not a bowyer or an engineer but I am having trouble getting that from a high school physics perspective. Border longbows have won world flight records-sems pretty efficient to me. I amy be wrong though.
Were the bow and string lengths the same on the above charts?

[James Wrenn]

I did not say Sids bows were slow.Everyone knows they are among the fastest around?? Given that a crony is only accurate to about 3% you really can't pick numbers apart that are so close.For all intents and purposes 2 or 3fps is nothing between bows.For me even a larger numbers means nothing. :)A bow gaining 4 lbs on the last inch of draw verses one gaining 2lbs in the same weight bow is a biggie however.10fps differance would not make me want to shoot a bow that stacked at my draw length to get it.When you look at numbers to pick a bow it is best to look at all of them. jmo

[Cutty47]

I'm right with you, James...

Now, for hunting purposes, since a heavy arrow...or at least a moderately heavy arrow, is preferred by most...

...I think you do need to consider attributes other than speed when defining "performance"...

Like how quiet a design is...

But the problem is it's hard to quantify "quiet"...

[Titan_Bow]

I found after 18 years of shooting longbows and recurves, that the less radical R/D longbow designs seem to be more forgiving for me. When I'm shooting a Hill style, or very mild R/D longbow, I find that little flaws in my release or form are not going to cause the arrow to miss its mark as much as it would from a typically shorter, radically R/D longbow design.    
  Also, of the bows that I've owned and shot, the classic Hill style bows, and mildly R/D longbows have always been the quietest.  I'm not saying a radical R/D bow is not quite, I'm just saying that my Hill style bow is much quieter.
  Finally, not all Hill style bows are equal. I once owned a Dan Quillian Bamboo Hunter (Hill Style). It was very slow, and had a lot of handshock.  I couldnt stand to shoot it.  I have also shot a Jerry Hill Wildcat, and it also had a lot of shock, and was not fun to shoot.  I've shot some of Craig's bows from Howard Hill Archery, and they are a pleasure to shoot (for me).  However, my favorite, and current Hill Style is a 64" yew and Bubinga made by John Strunk.  It is an absolute joy to shoot.

[Curveman]

I stand corrected James. I'll have to ask Sid about that 4lbs on the last inch of draw. I can't believe it (my Black Douglas doesn't and I put it on a scale when I bought it) and I know Sid, but he'll be honest about it.

I'm with you on "even larger (speed) numbers meaning nothing." Sid was raving about the HEX IV over my XP-30's but I passed on the looks (no wood veneers) alone!    Now he has these HEX V's that are pretty tempting with the wood but I'm switching to the GL for now. I can't handle the THOUGHT of metal risers for a recurve!  

[Curveman]

Originally posted by R H Clark:
I've shot some of the fastest RD longbows in the world and they were NOT less accurate than a slower bow.

Accuracy is not the measure of forgiveness though. I know a guy who shoots a bow with twisted tips more accurately than a lot of people and that bow is not at ALL forgiving.

[58WINTERS]

I suggest calling Allen Boice of Liberty longbows he builds D Hill style bows as well as R/D bows. He will give you straight talk as far as his designs go and they are excellent bows in craftsmanship and performance. 541-247-6382 or libertylongbows.com Call in the evenings he is a sheriff by day so mind your manners. This guys the real deal no hype. As fine a gentleman as you will find.

[James Wrenn]

Curveman I am just going with what Pete has on the website for the bow he tested.I have never shot any Border bow.I had really considered trying one and might still but I already got too many bows. :)I know they make great recurves but I already have what I want as far as recurves go so don't even need to go there.      

[R H Clark]

Curveman

I am not trying to be confrontational,if that is even the way to spell it    

I would like to know your definition of forgiveness and if you think D bows are more forgiving than RD bows.

I have found for me forgiveness is more related to length than limb shape. I find it easier to shoot a faster bow more accuratly because with a flater shooting arrow if I miss judge distance I won't miss the mark as far.

A week ago I was asking a world champion about forgivness in different bow designs.He shoots a 68in RD longbow but I am interested what forgivness means to different people.
 
In defense of the Border GL I was told at my 29 3/4 draw I would need a 68in or even 70in Border. Could it be that the 66in that Pete tested is a short bow for Sid's design and that is the reason for the stack?

[UK Bowman]

I shoot LONG Bows (68"-72") and whilst they are not the fastest bows they are silent, plus I shoot 750gr. arrows. The impact is fine. I feel that if you follow the rule "the slower the bow the heavier the arrow" you will be fine.

[Curveman]

Hi RH, I hope that I don't sound confrontational either because I certainly don't feel that. Mostly, I am confused!    Byron in TB says longbows are more forgiving. Other top dogs say recurves clearly are. So if THAT question could be answered then I suppose we would be on the road to knowing if D bows are more forgiving than RD bows. (As always, all other variables being equal).

I would define forgiving as tolerating more of the archer's errors without greatly affecting accuracy or less so than other bows would. As an example: If the limb tip twists less to the archer torguing the string then it should be more forgiving by allowing less error on your part by prohibiting too much tip twist. Byron would say that's one reason longbows are more forgiving than recurves so one of the pluses of adding stiff carbon to a recurve therefore is exactly to help prevent more torguing of the bow limb from pulling the string wrong. More length or mass in the limb and/or riser should also help. A highly RD longbow that was also made very short would only achieve that by pushing the riser forward-shorter but inherently less stable as the center of gravity would be farther away from the archer (try holding a heavy weight farther away from you then close then thinking of the jerk from the string as you release the arrow. Of course I say all this with the knowledge that some physics professor or mechanical engineer is laughing his ass off right now!    Makes sense to me though! Thoughts anybody?

You may be right about the Border length question. I believe my draw length in a longbow is only 27. (28 in a recurve). Sid told me that the 64" would be fine but not to draw it past 29.

Anyway, some friends and I like to challenge and debate each other all the time. Its fun for us but I did not mean to come across as obnoxious. I'm constantly asking myself if something is really true or do I just believe it because I read it in a book!