Classic "D" Shape....How Much Performance Do You Give Up?

[R H Clark]

Curveman,
You did not come across as obnoxious.Because of the limitations of not being able to see each other's expressions I just wanted to err to caution.

I would have agreed with you about forgivness in a bow untill the last couple weeks. I have shot a couple lately that by my old definition should be ,as Chad Weaver says,as unforgiving as an ex mother in law.However theses bows were nothing but sweet and accurate even with my less than good form and release.

The only point I really wanted to make is that with some designs today I don't think anyone has to choose between fast or forgiving.

The reason I am at Trad Gang is that we can ask each other questions and debate like adults.Here everyone seems to respect each other as they should.

As to the origional Question ,with some bows, Border, Black Swan and others I am sure I have overlooked it doesn't seem that you have to give up performance for a classic shape if that is what you want.

[Cutty47]

I think there's a very interesting question in whether the "forgiveness," stabiity, and accuracy quite a few of us fine in the "D" design is more related to the longer lengths needed to get them not to stack, or to their deep core, and narrow tips.

I mean, how many R/D's out there are built to "60-"70 inches?  

The reason R/D longbows have become so popular is the much larger market for shorter bows anyway.

Lost in the whole craze for shorter, and shorter high performance bows is the fact that the shortest RECURVE Oly shooter's shoot is "66 and most serious competitors shoot "68-"70...

There's a reason for that...

Where did all the sweet "64 inch custom 'curves go?  The ones that I've shot at that length have been silky smooth, especially at higher draw weights...

[Cutty47]

...not that I'm knocking the Shrew's, and Kabekona's, Centaur's, and River Edge Vortex's of the world...

...great little bows that have a very important place for blinds, stands, back East, and those guys who just prefer a shorter bow...

[RPr2]

If you are dealing with an all wood bow, the English D shape vs. the flat bow come within spitting distance of each other; if both are tillered perfect and of suitable wood. There in lies the problem.

The D shape is far less forgiving and very highly strained hence the need for perfect tillering and woods such as yew and osage.

Neither style will make great improvements to your shooting and both will kill game.

The decision is based on what you like. I like the classic long bows but they are hard to squeeze into a bind.

Once you add fiberglass the difference is more personal feel then performance.

RPr

[Sid]

On arrows approaching dry fire. We have a German archer helping us with a bow durability test. he has a Border Reiver 90lbs at his 30" of draw and he has been shooting under 6 grains per pound arrows.  A really high energy system. The bow speed seems to hover about 244 ft per sec and below 5.8 grains to the pound and does not show any real speed gain with lighter arrows

[Sid]

Interesting how every one seems to get caught up in numbers. One of the significant numbers is bow length 4" in bow length generally means a lot more limb mass than the shorter bow and perhaps more meanitfully carries more string mass.

4" in bow length can easily mean a 2 to 4 ft per sec slower than the shorter bow. Bows should be the same length for performance comparisons.

On light weight arrows around the 7 Gr/Lbs, one pound of bow weight often represents 2 ft per sec on the arrows. At 9 to 10 Gr/Lbs one lbs drops to around the 1.6 ft per sec generated and hence the percieved reduction in per formance on heavier arrows. The slower bow will never catch the faster bow however until you get close to dry fire as refered to in my above entry. I say percieved as the heavier arrow can carry around 10% more energy and around 30% more momentum. It's true performance difference is still there, only the speed element is lower all other characteristics of bow shooting are raised. Striking power, Silience, reduced hand shock and improved dynamic stability within the heavy arrow.

[Sid]

Last effort on this very interesting topic. The Griffon is a traditional looking longbow continuous curve limb design and "D" profile. We also have the Merlin made to the same materials technology levels, limb construction is the same. This is a straight or dished gripped mildly reflexed bow and a flatter "D" profile and the speed difference bow length for bow length is only 2 to 3 ft per sec due to the lower levels of energy storred. and therfore is also a real performer.

Hope I have added to the debate

Sid

[Curveman]

On the "stacking" issue: I checked with Pete and he says to look again at his chart: the bow only gains 2# from 28-29” and then goes up 3# from 29-30 so he suspects that the bump at 28 is just an abnormality.

[vermonster13]

Only one way to settle this, every bowyer send me a model that makes the classic D shape and I will extensively field test them and write up my results on TG for all to see.    :D

[sidebuster]

Is there a web site on Sid's bow the Griffon?

[Sid]

Vermonster

Thanks for the Challenge we can supply examples of all three of our Gl models the Harrier GL is a D/R bow with no reflex in the limb when braced  but more triagular, delta shaped than "D shaped and that bit faster. We could supply numerous example of each model in say 5 lbs increments     to make the test information all the more complete. The more bows you need the happier we would be    . We only need to come to an agreament on costs  :eek:  

Sid

[vermonster13]

Send me some numbers Sid. [email protected]  I've been mulling over your bows for a while anyways. I'll have a CX shortly, have the new Black Swan design on the way and just need one of your's to fill out the trifecta.

[vermonster13]

The Harrier is a sharp looking bow Sid.

[Curveman]

Pete’s tests state that the Griffin GL is a very smooth and comfortable bow to shoot and he has shot both. He never mentioned it stacking which he undoubtedly would have if it did.  To get the best out of any bow with any given bow arrow combination each and every arrow would have to be tuned to each bow to do an exact comparison. A change in spine can change nock height and so some discrepancy has to be allowed for every test. Take the difference in bow length into account and weight and I would bet the Griffon is as fast as the Adcock.  If we took away the rosewood veneers then I bet it would beat it. Of course I can't afford both right now but maybe one of you wealthier guys can do the exact comparisons:) I went with the slower GL as I like the looks of both the wood veneers and the two piece, longbow riser despite some obvious advantages of a three piece and more recurve design. The animals I'll take with it won't mind!  

[Orion]

To answer your initial question, "How much performance would one give up with a D style bow as opposed to a gentle or severe R/D bow. Not so much that most of us would notice.  The difference between the fastest and slowest, with poundage, arrow weight, etc. being equal is probably not much more than 15 fps.  If you compare the numbers for the the bow reports published in Trad Bowhunter for the past two years or so, that's what they so.  And these are all top of the line custom bows.  Now these are differences between bows of one type, i.e., just the longbows tested.  The difference between the fastest recurve and the slowest longbow is a little more than that.  Speed ranks about third or fourth on the attributes I look for in a good longbow.  If you have an opportunity, try out all the styles.  Then pick what you like.  Good luck.

[Curveman]

Well said Orion!

[Carbon Caster]

David,

Buy one of those Harriers!!  I haven't got to shoot one of those YET.  BTW I heard it is cheaper to have Sid's bows shipped to Canada first before they enter the States, so you are more than welcome to have it shipped to my house and I will send it on to you (IN ABOUT 3 YEARS)!!!!!  LOL!!!!

Fellows,

On the "stacking" issue.  I shoot a 62" DAS and have really gotten spoiled to a buttery smooth draw and the Test Griffon GL of Pete's DOES NOT have any apparent "stack" on the draw out to 29".  I have shot it at 30" and although that is longer than my normal draw, it did not feel like it gained excessive weight that last inch.  It did appear to burn the feathers off the arrow as it was rocketed down range.

[Curveman]

FYI. The Harrier is a great bow too but it does not come in TD which is something I definitely wanted. I think it is faster than the Griffin if we are back on speed!  

[Carbon Caster]

Curveman,

I would love to see a pic or two of your takedown together and taken down.  I like a 2 piee takedown myself and haven't had a chance to see one of Sid's takedowns yet.

[Curveman]

Will do CC, just have to wait for it to come in!