50# not enough...really?

[Hookeye]

By nature of traditional equipment/style we ARE accepting of some loss in accuracy.

[David Mitchell]

Ray absolutely nailed it IMO.

[sagebrush]

I agree with Ray Hammond. I would also add that a lot of people don't shoot as much as needed for maximum accuracy and to strengthen the muscles needed to shoot a 55 lb. bow. Hence they are always trying to use less. If you shoot enough, the bow you are shooting will start to feel weak. Over time you can work up to more weight. This of course doesn't work if you have physical injuries or handicaps. We are not in control of the arrow after it leaves the bow. Sometimes animals move. No one ever lost an animal from too much penetration. I like a lighter bow to keep my form when not shooting a lot. But when it starts getting closer to elk season I like to work up to at least 60 lbs. That combined with heavy arrows has made some marginal hits very deadly. Gary

[Hookeye]

If I shoot a 2" group with a 50# bow, but shoot a 4" group with a 55# does that mean I shouldn't shoot the 55#?

At what distance do we measure this grouping ability?

Again, I'd like to hear how people are defining what is "accurate".

[Gehrke145]

I just went through most of this thread and some of you guys think to much lol.  I guess I don't see the point of shooting over 50lbs (for me) when I get exits on big critters most of the time with what I'm shooting now???  To me its a trade off, I can hold 50 for a long time 60 I can not.  Could I work into it prolly just don't see the reason behind it.  JMHO

[Hookeye]

Originally posted by Don Stokes:
I would never, ever, sacrifice accuracy for more pounds of draw weight. Arrows kill by hemorrhage, not force of impact. One should not rely on force to make a bad shot good. Recipe for disaster.

Bad shots happen, often outside of the shooter's input. To operate with no margin for error is a recipe for disaster.

[Bowwild]

In the late 60's when I started, many folks,  considered effective range was the distance you could put 9 of 10 arrows in a 10" paper-plate. I started at 5 yards and when I could consistently do it I backed up 5 yards. When I got to 30 yards I stopped.

Our deer season will start on September 4th. This will be the first for me with traditional equipment since I was 22 years old -- 34 years ago.  

Accuracy is the most important to me.

1. If I can't hit the vitals I won't shoot.
2. If I don't think my equipment will produce an exit wound I won't shoot.
3. If I don't think the shot will produce an exit wound, I won't shoot.  

In those early days it seems the adults (I was only 16) who were shooting heavy weight bows were shooting "only" 50-55# draw weights (my bow was 45# @ 28" my draw is 26").

I used to shoot a lot of 3-D courses. I've shot a few traditional 3-D courses this year.  It is shocking how much difficulty some of the poor souls I see on the traditional 3-D trail have with shooting. We can't even talk about accuracy because too many of these folks can't even get to anchor. It isn't a strength thing, it's a mental thing. I feel for these fellows because I know some of them personally and they love archery and give back to it big time with their service. I know the shooting problem these folks have doesn't necessarily have a thing to do with how much they are pulling, it has to do more with what their thinking about while pulling. However, I can't help but wonder how many of them ended up with shooting problems because they were over-bowed.  I think a lot took the sage advice of "shooting the heaviest poundage you can (shoot accurately)".  Problem with that advice is people start with the heaviest poundage they can DRAW and THEN try to achieve the accuracy. Many develop shooting problems (mental) which prevent them from ever achieving accuracy.  I think some traditional shooters who put the compound down did so because they developed issues with the compound and couldn't place tiny groups anymore. They converted to traditional because they weren't "expected" to be accurate.  

I stumbled upon how much difference just 5 pounds can have on a person's development of proper arhcery form as I retaught myself to shoot with recurves over the past 7 months. I average shooting at least once per day 6-200 arrows (usually 30-50). By the way, I also learned (some of your are thinking duh) that as I build my shooting muscles shooting every day isn't the best thing I could do.  This past week I made myself put the bow down for 3 days. It was very difficult not to shoot because it is part of my daily bread. Then I shot yesterday.  The bow felt 5 pounds lighter in draw weight! I guess I had given my muscles some time (like weight lifters do) to repair and build.  

My advice to anywone would be to start with a bow that is lighter than you can easily handle. Perfect your form with this too-light equipment and train your mind how to shoot and how to think about your shooting. Then, if the weight you've mastered is too low for ethical (your ethic, not mine) bowhunting, start moving up. However, as you move up ALWAYS maintain the form you've established. If your form or thought process starts to falter, realign the thinking or drop back in weight.  

Here's a fact of life I accept. If it takes 90 pounds (and $25,000) to shoot a Cape Buffalo, I'm not capable of doing it.  Every beast we bowhunt has its own set of requirements (whitetail deer in KY -- 30-50 pounds of draw weight and $30 license) -- I hope to be able to do both of these for another 20-30 years, God willing.

[Andy Cooper]

Even though my question was repetitive and I didn't do a search before posting it, this has been an informative thread. I presently have only a 50# recurve and am going to get another. When I was shooting 60#'ers, then picked up the 50#, it seemed like a toy, and I shot it more accurately. I suspect I was over bowed at 60#, even though I could keep all my arrows on a paper plate sized target inside of 30 yards...and even though I'm a bit larger than the average person. I KNOW I was over bowed with the 80#'er I gave away! Fifteen arrows at a time was all I could manage to shoot, and they patterned like a cylinder choked shotgun.

[Ray Hammond]

"Only the OP will know fer sure... But if it was a choice between a 20yd shot broadside with a 45# or a 30 yd shot with a 60# bow, I'd take the first and pass on the second... why? Because I know what shot I can make... I am more accurate with a 45# bow than with a 60.... Also at 20yds a lot less can go wrong than at 30yds... "

I'm not understanding the premise of this statement: Do you think we shoot higher poundage to get the opportunity to shoot longer shots?

I know that's not what I do.

Enough goes wrong inside of 20 we don't even need to worry about 30 yards- and no matter how good you are- there's a hugely significant issue involved over which you have NO control- game movement.

[Bowwild]

I agree. Draw weight is for penetration not distance. I want to hit em hard enough at 20 yards (preferably under) for a sure and rapid recovery.

[Andy Cooper]

I'm not understanding the premise of this statement: Do you think we shoot higher poundage to get the opportunity to shoot longer shots?

I know that's not what I do.

That was my thinking when I was shooting 60# bows....maximizing range. After shooting nothing but a 50#'er for awhile, I can't imagine that it wouldn't be sufficient if I do my part properly. But I asked the question anyway, to take advantage of other's experience, since my trad bowhunting experience is very limited.

[Slasher]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
"Only the OP will know fer sure... But if it was a choice between a 20yd shot broadside with a 45# or a 30 yd shot with a 60# bow, I'd take the first and pass on the second... why? Because I know what shot I can make... I am more accurate with a 45# bow than with a 60.... Also at 20yds a lot less can go wrong than at 30yds... "

I'm not understanding the premise of this statement: Do you think we shoot higher poundage to get the opportunity to shoot longer shots?

I know that's not what I do.

.

Ray,

I didn't even want to really get dragged into this discussion like this... This discussion is not a right wrong or even a win lose situation....

I see your point and it is a very good one... However, I think think that we are disagreeing on points that we probably agree on... because we are seeing things from a different perspective... Since this is hypothetical and we are looking from different viewpoints... I will attempt to explain my point...


Here without the sake of emotion the communication is only partially conveyed... I am not nocking anyone who can shoot a 60-80# bow accurately... However, I think when things go bad a heavier arrow shot out of a heavier bow will fare better than a lighter one or one shot out of a lighter bow when put into the same spot... The issue to me is more of a question of,' Is a good arrow out of a 50# bow better than a marginal shot out of a 55 or 60# bow?"

 I also believe than a two blade penetrate better than a 3 or 4 blade... Dr Ashby has very good documentation  on these issues...

However, Some folks believe that their cedar shafted arrows with woodsmans are plenty... But a 60# bow slinging a wood shafted arrow with Woodsman heads will fair far less than a grizzly on a skinny carbon out of a 50# bow many times... Not always...

There are a myriad of factors that could effect these hypotheticals... I agree shoot theheaviest bow you can shoot accurately!!! But I don't believe it is a magical number... as a light 45# bow that gets it at 26"amo is usually less effective as one pulling45# at 31"amo....

I don't advocate a heavier bow means a longer shot... My point was is that at 20yds, Given a hypothetical quartering away shot on a calm unsuspecting elk, for me holding a well tuned 45# bow I would say it  is a green light to let it fly...

Unfortunately, many folks may work up to a heavier bow for a couple months to go a a one time hunt... and after spending lots of hard earned $$$ knowing this hunt is a once every 2-3 year thing at best... may only be shooting that 60# marginally... be worn out from mountains they weren't prepared for... and feel the need to make meat ! The opportunity presents itself and the confidence of shooting this heavier bow, the adrenaline of the encounter coursing through their veins... The body's fight or flight instinct takes over!!! I'd say more folks than would admit, would let that arrow fly... Much confidence is gained by shooting a heavier bow!

For sake of argument, let's say that with fatigue, terrain, vegetation that the hypothetical hunter in this case; has the ability to 70% of the time put the shot will be on target... It is the 30% we are worrying about... The more accurate the archer the higher that successful percentage climbs... The less accurate the lower it falls... But I am advocating that being on the lower end of the effective bow weight one must be more dilligent in their shot selection... I would say I would say my chances of pulling a bad shot would go up 10-15% pulling 60-65# bow over a 55# one...

The animal is the great unknown... We owe it to the animal and ourselves to do the most we can to ensure a clean effective and humane kill on the game we hunt... I just would prefer to raise my chances to 80% than drop them to 60 or 65% hypothetically speaking...

[Mike Bolin]

Contrary to some of the statements here, not everyone can work up to shooting 55# or more. When I shot compound, I shot 85#-95# (I was young and dumb). When I first made the switch to stickbows, I dropped down to the mid 70# range. In the early '90s, I bought a 59# bow and had good success with it on deer and black bear.

Two summers ago I began to loose feeling and muscle control on my right side (bow arm side, I am a lefty) and after a bunch of tests and scans, I found out that I was suffering from nerve damage. It turns out I had broken my neck in two places many years ago! I did not know it was ever broken.....could've been work or sports or just doing something stupid...don't know for sure.

The doctors told me if I was to continue shooting I was to shoot no more than 50#. To be able to do that, I lift weights 3 times a week and go thru a series of stretches and isometrics every morning.I have "cheated" a bit and am shooting 52# and 54# but my shooting sessions are much shorter now.I tried a heavier bow (56#) and found that my right should starts to tingle and after 50 arrows, the tingling moves down into my fingers.

I have increased my arrow weight as well as my foc on my arrows to maximize my penetration and I limit my shot distance. I make sure that my bow is tuned and my broadheads are shaving sharp.

Shoot as much weight as you can accurately shoot, shoot a razor sharp head and a heavy arrow. Limit your shots and hunt hard!

Mike

[Bowwild]

This bow weight question is the most burning question I have as I go into this next deer season.  I shot 45-50# recurves (@ 26" so you know really 40-45#) for 6 years and then up to 76# with compounds the next 24 years and 60# for 15 years after that. I'm used to blowing way through everything I shoot with those compound set-ups. I've worked, I 've shot, and I've studying my recurve shooting since December. To maintain my form I feel like I need to be shooting 46-48 pounds. I killed two deer in those early recurve days with light tackle. I don't know why I'm worried a bit about it as I return to the recurve fold. I guess its the time spent at higher weights. My friends, and several on this site have assured me my tackle, as long as my decisions are sound, won't let me down. I applaude those who are able to  master higher draw weights. They might be able to shoot multple-blade broadheads and maybe take a bit of harder quartering away shot than I. They might be able to hunt a little higher in a tree and take a shot down the back. I'll have to come in from the side. This next statement isn't for the veterans because you know it. I advise new archers and I deal with thousands of them, to be careful shooting heavy weight bows to protect their shoulders for a long archery life. Young people don't realize they won't be invulnerable forever. I always ask them this, "How far in the ground on the other side of the deer do you need to go?"

[skarcher]

I too have wondered at the validity of bow weight as a measure of suitability for any particular animal. As a case in point, 2 of my bows happen to like the same spine arrow (different center shots) one is 53@28 and the other is 45@28. I draw both to approximately 29". When i chrono these two bows with the exact same arrow, the 45 lb'er only shoots an average of 4fps slower. Results are similar with varying arrow weights. My conclusion is that the 45 lb is just more efficient than the 53.

One poster back a few pages suggested that momentum may be a better measure, and judging from my results I would have to agree. I can understand why most people use bow weight - it's just easier to measure, but for me, I won't hesitate to use my efficient 45 as I've seen the penetration capability of both these bows, and there really hasn't been any difference.

I thing I can say, is that on average, I shoot the lighter bow more consistently, especially when it gets real cold.

As always, shoot and use what works for you!

[Don Stokes]

Hookeye, accuracy for me means being the best I can be. I shot 65-70# for years, but I can no longer shoot that weight with the accuracy that put a number of game animals on the ground and filled my hunting room with 3D trophies. Nowadays I shoot 50# most of the time, and I'm fully confident that I can kill anything that gets in the way of my arrows with it. If I tried to shoot 65#, I would not be as confident.

When I started bowhunting in the '60's, the typical hunting bow pulled 40-45#, and anyone who shot 60# was looked on with awe, like he was a real he-man to be able to shoot such weight. Those 40-45# bows killed everything on the continent. The animals are no tougher today. If I have to drop a few more pounds as I age, it won't bother me a bit. I'll still kill just as effectively, as long as my ACCURACY is still there.

A bad hit is a bad hit, and a few more pounds of draw weight is not likely to make a real difference. Even the heaviest of arrows shot from the heaviest of bows will not do the job if the arrow is in the wrong place. Yes, sometimes things happen that mess up the shot. If I'm unlucky enough to have that happen to me, I'll work on my shot timing and my accuracy, instead of running to a heavier bow to try to make up for my shortcomings.

I fully agree that more can be better, but not at the risk of losing accuracy to ANY degree. Shoot what you can handle, not what you can possibly pull. If I could handle 65-70# today, that's what I would be shooting. At my age and with a beat-up body I can't, so I shoot less. I still put animals on the ground, and haven't lost one in years.

[Andy Cooper]

.

[Andy Cooper]

Originally posted by skarcher:
I thing I can say, is that on average, I shoot the lighter bow more consistently, especially when it gets real cold.

I bet you know a whole lot more about cold than do those of us in the desert southwest US!  

[skarcher]

Originally posted by Andy Cooper:
I bet you know a whole lot more about cold than do those of us in the desert southwest US!

Seein' as how I'm gettin' older, I don't hunt much below -20 anymore, but with the right clothing, it's not really all that bad. When a good animal comes your way, you forget all about the cold, but if you've been sitting for a while, it takes a bit of effort to come to full draw. That's one of the reasons I prefer a little lighter draw weight, especially if the results are the same.

By the same token, I really would like some day to experience a rut hunt in above 0 temps!

[Andy Cooper]

The early muley season here is in August. It'll be somewhere between 80 and 110 degrees. The rut hunt is in Jan, and the temp will be somewhere between 20(with a 10-60 mph breeze) and 50...with the same breeze. Nothing like hunting in the desert!  :rolleyes: