Why do we do it ?

[lpcjon2]

Those elephants act like they have a conscience to me...LOL

[COMPOUNDLESS IN CONCRETE]

Different ideas and opinions are always good I guess.  Im gonna go outside and    .

[waknstak IL]

Nature is cruel. I am not. I believe in ending it as quickly and humanely as possible. I don't know what goes through an animals mind. I do know what goes through mine.

[Don Stokes]

Pain and suffering are exclusively human concepts. I sincerely doubt that any other animal is sentient enough to experience what we feel, for a number of reasons that I won't attempt to elucidate here. That's not to say that it doesn't matter how we treat the creatures we share the planet with, but I won't lose any sleep worrying about how some animal feels about how some human treated it.

I kill animals and eat them. No apologies for that, and no apologies if I screw it up and wound or cause a slow death to some of them. I won't do it on purpose, but sometimes it happens. It goes with the territory, and if someone can't handle that reality they should only shoot at foam.

Death is real and permanent. All of us will experience it some day. Until my turn comes, I will do my part to insure that another bunch of animals will experience it before I do, so that I may get nutrition from them before my personal elements go back to the earth. The wheel keeps turning, no matter how we feel about it.

[Tsalagi]

This is a good thread.

  Myself, I am a Pagan. As in I am polytheistic; I believe in many Gods and Goddesses. When I give thanks for a meal (be it whatever), I give thanks to the Gods, but also to the Spirit of the animal that died and, yes, the Spirits of plants and water. I see the Sacred all around me, in all things. I am part of it. How I treat Nature will determine how I am treated later; or perhaps my descendants.

  Because of this, I believe I owe the animal a lot. For one thing, the animal will give me life. It will become part of me and live on in me. So, not only do I owe the animal respect and thanks, but as it lives on in me, how I treat others reflects the value I give that gift. I feed birds. I try to help other people when I can.

  I am living a dream. To shoot a longbow, to hunt, to walk the forest, to hear wild, running water speak its wisdom. So, I act with reverence towards all things, not just the animals.

[jhg]

[Chris Shelton]

This is pretty touchy. I hate to say this, as it seems to be against normal hunter beliefs. . . but I am pretty sure animals are capable of feeling and they could have a conscience.  It is really a mute point as none of the animals I know can say for themselves.

They deserve respect!  End of discussion!

[buckeye_hunter]

"I am living a dream. To shoot a longbow, to hunt, to walk the forest, to hear wild, running water speak its wisdom. So, I act with reverence towards all things, not just the animals."


Hunting is a dream that I cannot live without. My wife and I were talking the other day. I said I could not deal with the reality of never hunting again. Same with never stepping foot in a boat or canoe to pursue fish. It is a dream as old as time.

Oddly, it makes me feel good to know I will be dust one day. My body will feed the plants that then live on through some yet undetermined herbivore. Then, that animal will be hunted and I will again become a small part of the predator in new form.  

Some of are just born for this. THAT is why we do it and there is no explaining all the differences we take to the field as individuals.

[Bonebuster]

Why do we do it? Because of the interaction. The chance to be less human and more animal. Science says we have been human for a relatively short time. Some of our instincts are not dead. Some people carry more leftover instinct than others.
For some of the lucky, instinct is still strong.

Case in point...each and every one of us who love to hunt. Those of us who are stirred to the center of our being when we smell the forest floor. Those of us who can spot a bedded deer in the nearby trees, as we speed along a highway. Maybe a thousand motorists have passed by, but WE are the ones who noticed the deer.

As hunters, we know exactly how much blood must be spilled for us to eat our steak. Because we know, and are actually part of the process, I believe we can appreciate the life giving meal on a different level than those who are disconnected.

For some of us, the reason "we do it" is simply because we are aware of the fact that we MUST.
Sadly, I firmly believe there are alot of people who live their lives, knowing, something is missing...and circumstances came about preventing them from ever finding out that they are natural born predators.[hunters]

Another cool thread.  

[Turkeys Fear Me]

A lot of this depends on how we view ourselves as "hunters."  To some, it is almost a religious experience and treated as such.  Other's view hunting as a management tool used to insure and maintain a healthy resource.  Others view their role somewhere in between the two.  

Strictly from a management perspective, a certain number of any given species have to die each year in order to maintain a healthy resource.  To the ones that die, it matters not how they were killed, or even whether they were recoverd or not. Once they are dead, they don't care, and something is going to use them as a food source and it will not be wasted.  The only difference really is who or what is in posession of the carcass.

In my opinion, as stewards of the resource, we owe animals nothing more two things.

1. Our best efforts in eliminating unneeded suffering.

2.  Doing what is best for the resource over all, and over time.

Anyting else we attach to the process doesn't really have anything to do with the animal, but to our own personal needs, wants and desires.

[Hoyt]

I had a dog one time that  just laid on the ground and didn't pay any attention to flies, lizards squirrels or any other varmints ...I got another one that just the opposite ..I guess I'm moreee like him

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Originally posted by Buckwheaties:
I wonder if the archers of old, flinging a quiver full of arrows at 100yds at a deer, had thoughts like are expressed here? I guess time changes ethics? I'll bet that over the last thousands of years of man taking game with a bow, thoughts of ethics were even nonexistent.

Just how "old" are the archers of old you speak of.  I'm sure that if your choices are hunt and kill something to feed yourself and/or your village or starve to death your ethics would change drastically.  Realisticly there aren't many, if any of us that hunt today that are in this situation.

[SteveB]

They deserve respect! End of discussion!
 

Problem arises when someone wants their definition of "respect" to be the only one.

[ChuckC]

That brings out yet another point.  Yeah , I know this is a series of questions, but you almost can't ask one without the other.  

Buckeye, I am not so certain that "there aren't many, if any...." .  That is probably very true of the TradGangers as we all have internet access and likely live in more material surroundings.  

There are yet many many beings, yes they are people too, who don't share our good fortune.  They do hunt and gather to survive every single day of their lives.  Do you think that they feel differently about this ?
ChuckC

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

I can't speak for them, but I would feel differently about it.  If I was in a situation where I had to bring some type of animal home from the field to keep my family from going hungry there would be no end to what I would do to provide nutrition for my family whether it was considered ethical or not.  I feel it would be more ethical than letting your family starve.  To answer this portion of the question, yes, I do feel that different circumstances can and do change the way people feel about this.  I also feel that different circumstances will change what people will deem as ethical.

As for my there aren't many if any comment, you are correct and thank you for pointing that out as I was not considering the people outside of the circle of this conversation.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

There are yet many many beings, yes they are people too, who don't share our good fortune.  They do hunt and gather to survive every single day of their lives.  Do you think that they feel differently about this ?
ChuckC

Yes.  

"Ethics" really only enter into hunting when you don't have to do it to survive.  When it's either kill or starve, "ethics" go out the window.  Just ask the rugby team who's plane crashed in the Andes.

[Bowwild]

The Bible is my guide for appreciating and accepting my role as a hunter -- dominon over, use and stewardship of the beasts that creepeth and crawl upon the earth.

I think the comments above are very thoughtful and incredibly consistent. I too have thought about this most of my hunting life. Why do I work so hard to pefect my hunting and shooting skills? Why am I such a conservative shot? Why does a wounding loss cause me such turmoil?  I think the answer to the first two questions is found in the last question -- the turmoil over a lost animal.

I'm a retired wildlife biologist. Animals are not people and I don't see them with any human traits or emotions at all. We were created in God's likeness, but the beasts of the earth were not. When I wound an animal it is likely that I made a bad decision or didn't execute the way I know how .. I failed to do my job (but not always). I have disrepected myself and my preparation. I may have also been an unworthy representative of the hunter.  I am ashamed of myself and there is no hiding or lying from one's self. If the bad result (wounding loss) is due to my carelessness or disregard then I have been guilty of practicing poor stewardship. I feel less of a hunter as a result.

For me its not really the "pain and suffering" of the animal because those are human emotions.  

I've evolved a theory about folks who take low percentage (to put it nicely) poor shots; running, brush, too far, etc. -- I don't think folks that do this routinely put much effort in trying to recover animals that don't appear to be mortally hit. If they spent  most of a day or more trying to follow-up on a poor hit they would be less likely to try them.

By the way, the only way to short-circuit the turmoil (for me) of a wounded and lost animmal, is to do it right the next time. If I learn from the incident and do better next time, I can let it go.

[Bowwild]

I must ammend my comment about consistency mentioned above. By the time I finished  my post several different points of view were aired.

Regarding the mosquito, spiders, and ants. Yep, same God created them. They have their own unique roles in the grand scheme. Some of these critters clean up the mess made by others -- decomposers have a job too.

I don't dare dog these beasts that many consider pests because that's a whole 'nother' can-of-worms (which I respectfully consider fish bait).

[buckeye_hunter]

Originally posted by Bowwild:
 For me its not really the "pain and suffering" of the animal because those are human emotions.  

I would respectfully disagree here in that pain and suffering are universal(meaning all animals).

1. Ever see a dog with bloat(stomache flip)? That is a nasty bit of suffering.

2. Ever accidentally step on a dog's tail or paw? They don't yip because it felt wonderful. It was pain.

Pain and suffering translate to more than humans. If not, then honestly, what is an ethical shot? Why do we bother? We could just shoot away with no care as to the result of the shot other than to eventually bring home some groceries.

No disrespect, but I just don't see that.

[ChuckC]

Any input from folks in other countries ?  Other experiences or ways of thought.

I didn't post this as a test.  We are all correct for ourselves.  But there are so many of us and so many versions of "ourselves".  I am really interested in what othes think, and maybe why they think that way.

ChuckC