Longevity of foam core limbs

[Orion]

Seems we're doing an awful lot of speculating based on what one or a few guys think is happening re FITA shooters. A lot of times, such perceptions can be regional.  One person wins with a particular bow, so many others hop on the band wagon and buy that style, etc.  So far, no one's presented any documentation of what FITA shooters actually shoot, other than a few brand names, and whether the proportion of those shooting one type of core material vs another is going up or down. Furthermore, target shooting practices, principles, bow styles and materials don't always translate to hunting uses.

It wasn't that long ago that someone raised the same type of "longevity" question regarding bamboo  cores. I don't really have a horse in this race, except that I do have a set of carbon backed, bamboo cored  Shawnee longbow limbs on order from Bob, but I've found that bow design and the skill and care of the builder has as much to do with a bow's longevity as the materials used.

I suppose we won't have a definitive answer to this question for another 30-40 years.  In the meantime, I'm going to give them a try and find out for myself.  I'll report back in 30 years.  

[Hud]

Based on my personal experience wood has advantages over man made products in bows with deep cores. Longbows can be made from Yew, Osage, Bamboo and many other woods, but you have a better chance of seeing an Ostrich fly, than shooting an all foam longbow.

In my opinion the advantage of foam is limited to lighter weight recurves where wood is not needed, and greater speed can be obtained from foam and carbon. Furthermore, wood should dominate in heavier weight recurves, where woods desirable properties outweigh any undesirable properties and heavier arrows are being used.

Personally, I will be happy to carry a wood core recurve, longbow, or R&D bow anytime, anywhere during my lifetime.

[Bill Carlsen]

My wife and I have been shooting DAS recurves with Win&Win carbon/foam limbs for over 5 years. No problems whatsoever and the carbon/foam limbs, I am convinced, allow my wife, in particular, to enjoy hunting with a recurve and not a compound simply because the performance is so much better. And I think Bob Morrison is right. I just got a set of Border HEX5 limbs with wood core. The feel of the draw and release is different. I took the bow on its first major voyage this weekend on a course that I  have shot for over 15 years (Muzzy Stump Shoot) and I was disappointed that the new limbs didn't seem to be quite what I expected. They shot very, very well, but having reflected on the limbs on the long ride home while trying to analyze why my bow felt so different and then reading what has been said here, I think the difference was the lack of "smoothness"  while drawing and at the release.

But, as for the longevity question, I don't believe it for a minute. It has not been my experience at all.

[KumaSan]

I'm relatively new on the carbon/foam limb scene, and recently got into them with a new Morrison. As allot of others say, these limbs shoot fast and are smooth. My experience in the use of carbon fiber is for structural repair of concrete, and it is well documented that the carbon's strength is in one direction. It adheres extremely well with the modern resins.

I'd go with Bob's experience on the use and durability of the carbon/foam limbs.

[vermonster13]

Like all materials you need to use it properly and in the right form. Some designs see no benefit from carbon or foam and some become almost entirely different bows with them. The carbon foam used in the Black Swans will soon be available to all the bowyers who want it and from what I've seen will make even more improvements for folks who have designs that can make use of foam. The carbon foam has proven quite a bit more durable than the glass foam in our matrix. All materials can fail of course, and there are several materials in each limb that can lead to that. The art is in making the choices of materials/glues that will function well together in a design that can benefit from it.

The OLY shooters who switched to wood cores were primarily Samick shooters who chose to shoot the Samick Masters over the Samick foam limbs. The Masters were a hot limb while in production and had a much different feel than the other Samick offerings of the time.

[Sixby]

Actually the foam core has prooved to me to be more efficient in longbows. It makes a much lighter, faster and smoother limb. Combined with carbon backing and a thin glass, s glass I believe that it is the ultimate D and R limb. I do not like the looks of it. I do not care for the softness on the edges but those seem to be the only drawbacks.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

Originally posted by Orion:
Seems we're doing an awful lot of speculating based on what one or a few guys think is happening re FITA shooters. A lot of times, such perceptions can be regional.  One person wins with a particular bow, so many others hop on the band wagon and buy that style, etc.  So far, no one's presented any documentation of what FITA shooters actually shoot, other than a few brand names, and whether the proportion of those shooting one type of core material vs another is going up or down.

Couldn't agree with you more Orion.  There's a whole lot of speculatin' going on.

[Sixby]

I agree about the speculation. For instance there is no empiracal evidence that a given number of pro shooters reject, or have rejected, the foam for any reason, much less longevity.

Its almost like a rumor generated by someone not building with foam.

 There may be some real basis of concern about certain quality aspects of different foam cores but those things are not being addressed.

 All wood cores are not equal either. All action boo cores are not equal. However if a bowyer builds with a specific foam. knows its properties and has a good rrack record with it I see no reason that foam core bows would not be the best of the best.

Here is another thought. I can build a bow with actionboo cores and mic the lams perfectly . Mic the overall limb to be absolutely perfect side to side and both limbs built on same form with same batch of wood and end up with different poundages in the limb. When I do that same build with foam core they come out exact poundage.I would bet that the other builders that actually build with foam cores can say the same thing.
This implies that the wood core,. No matter how perfectly picked out and machined has different forces being built up inside of it. It is not an homogenuous material. Foam does not have that problem.

This does not mean that I do not use hickory, maple, tigerwood , actionboo or actionwood for cores. I do. It just takes a little more work and in most cases is just a bit less exacting.If I were a target shooter I would want the benefit of foam core limbs. I doubt that most of us as hunters would benefit that much over good wood core limbs. Steve

[artifaker1]

After reading most of the links there in your post curveman I think "the back to wood" thing is all hype and marketing manipulation.
And it is working on some of the insecure tech crazed ILF crowd. They're buying up those exact same Koren wood core limbs (veras). ka-ching.
I think those Korean archers/manufactures knew exactly what to do to play on fear and get people to buying new limbs. But didn't that "guy" loose in the end to the Ukrainian? Maybe he should have stuck with the foam.
I know I like my foam cores.
And I can definitely tell you that the main reason other people using wood in competition is because they are "still" using it, they had never stopped using wood in the first place. And I know why. They shoot very tight groups with those old limbs and won't stop using them. I have still yet to out shoot some of the groups I shot at long range with my old Bear takedowns. The Skys and old Bears are Very forgiving tack drivers, and make really good string walking bows as well, because of the design/tiller.
Sometimes there simply are other agendas involved besides top speed when choosing limbs.

[hunt it]

Keep this one going I'm looking for deals on foam/carbon limbs!!    

All I can say is I love all foam/carbon so much I sold all my wood limbs. Some may not notice big difference at low weights but at 70 -75 there is considerable difference.

[LongStick64]

I have to doubt that Olympic level shooters are returning to wood due to hype. Winning an Olympic medal is quite significant in most countries. I don't think any archer at that level would make a decision based on marketing or hype.

I understand that on a practical level, most Olympic archers fire more arrows through their bows than we do so the application of foam limbs on a target vs traditional setup varies, that being said. If the guy shooting a thousand more arrows through his limbs than me finds a reason to switch, it's worth noting.

So is it fair to say that not all foam cores are the same.

[vermonster13]

One group of OLY shooters shot wood heavily last Olympics, Samick. Like I said they chose the Samick Master limbs and those are out of production last I knew.

There are different foam cores. Glass and carbon. There are different modulus used just as in fly rods and the higher modulus is more expensive generally and more durable to a point. Just as there are different woods and bamboos used for cores.

I like the feel of foam cores, some don't just as some prefer bamboo over maple or maple over action wood and so on. Find what you like and shoot it. The limbs put out by the major players in ILF (Win&Win, Hoyt, Samick, etc) are tested over 100,000s of shots. I don't think you have durability issues to worry about, especially at the weight arrows most of us shoot.

[Ragnarok Forge]

The interesting thing in all this is that we are translating target bow technology over to benefits to hunting bows.  I would love to see a scientific comparison of multiple carbon / foam limbed hunting level bows in their many variations against wood core bows of the same design.

If there is a design that provides an extra speed benefit then I might see some benefit in spending the extra cash.  I think that people shooting "short" bows might see a benefit in smoothness.  I can't see that my 68 inch R/D longbows would pull any smoother than they already do.  

I have enjoyed the thread and will keep an eye on this thread since I have been pondering finding a carbon limb bow or two to shoot to see if I like the limbs or not.  To much conjecture is going on right now for me to dump the cash on a new bow without some proof.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
The interesting thing in all this is that we are translating target bow technology over to benefits to hunting bows.

Target bow technology IS hunting bow technology.  Animals are nothing but targets with blood in them.

[hunt it]

Curve,

Mine are all gone already. Nothing but foam/carbon for me from here on out.

Besides, at rate most of you guys buy and sell bows and own 50 of em I doubt anybody on here ever going to wear one out.

[artifaker1]

As they said in the matrix; Ignorance is bliss.
It is definitely manipulation.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Target rifle technology and target bow technology does not necessarily translate directly to hunting technology.  We usually find small pieces or most of a new technology / material transfers well but not all of it.  I have spent enough years engineering things to know that direct translation to another segment of any sport or project is never 100%  

My comment was aimed at my need to see some research and reports to determine how well the new technology transfers and what segments of it will be most usefull to the hunting community and the bowyers that serve it.  

It might just be me, but I don't concern myself with what olympic shooters are using.  I do pay attention to what modern improvements bowyers and hunters are using and how they can apply to the hunting we all love.  If someone can prove up on a significant speed increase with improved smoothness of draw then carbon will be a must do in my book.  

Lots of fads come and go with millions spent on them only to find out they were just that.  I prefer to spend my hard earned cash on things that I have concrete proof are an improvement.

Not saying carbon is not that hot new thing.  Just looking for some proof before buying.

[vermonster13]

This thread is about foam. Carbon has proven itself speed wise and durability wise. The foam offers other benefits to hunters than speed. The most valuable is how it stays consistent regardless of weather conditions. Moisture, heat, cold, etc won't change how the limbs shoot unlike natural materials. For bowyers, foam is consistent for building limbs. Once you have your formulas down, you can always hit weight and limbs sets will shoot the same. With natural the variance is much wider. Foam is just another step forward in materials like actionwood and actionboo were, same as fiberglass was at one time.

[artifaker1]

On the Hoyt website they talk about dry firing their newest FOAM CORE limbs hundreds of times in testing. That should provide some insight into the longevity of foam core limbs.

[Sixby]

Originally posted by Curveman:
[QB] Foam is foam and so has voids in it

None that I have seen. Are you sure about that. I know its man made but the quality control is actually pretty incrediblw. this is a space age product. Designed to make snowbords. LOL

As tp tje bemefot tp bpwuers/ It is much higher priced than any other core product I know of. The bvenefit is its consistancy pr homogenous character, smoothness of draw and physical lightness compared to wood lams.

I think as Bro Paul said, You protest too much