Longevity of foam core limbs

[artifaker1]

Foam is a very general term. I use foam to shave with. Were talkin about the "foam" material used in carbon foam limbs, not the foam in your seat cushion, or the foam in the peanuts used for shipping.
Curveman do you have a reference for your claim of Hoyt foam failures? Or is that just more bliss?

[Sixby]

Border is building a complete composite limb with no wood now. Sid said no foam. However I would venture that they are using a carbon foam composit with carbon instead of glass. I have not seen it however. Does anyone know? Steve

 The foam I use is syntatic foam with glass microshperes.

[Bill Kissner]

[Ragnarok Forge]

By definition a foam product has air or another gas entrained in the final product. That is what makes it foam.  In the case of "solid" foams that is a small amount of air / gas bubbles but it is there.  Modern solid foams are very consistant.  Then again any modern process has a certain amount of reject material.  That is just the nature of manufacturing.  The real question is how much of the reject makes it past quality control at the plant.

[artifaker1]

After talking with  several Bowyers about modern materials, some of the limb failures are more to design than the modern materials. And double carbon limbs not working well in some designs, not necessarily to the foam core. After all, Hoyt can dry fire there latest double carbons an unprecedented number of times, repeating myself there.
But I don't have problem with a guy just not feeling well about space age materials in bows, most of the Bowyers can make you some damn good wood limbs if that is what you feel better about. I still have some very cutting edge bows with plywood core limbs. And I shoot them too.

[Bob Morrison]

my foam has no voids,,,,,,,,,,, so far.I've had wood cores over the years that had voids, you could not see until you have a problem, Lot of it on tempered Bamboo...... I can understand some not liking a core different than wood,Thats fine, just don't forget your wood cores have fiberglass or carbon over them,and a high strength expoxy holding them together. All OLY limbs with wood are maple, our standard wood core...And it will preform with Foam...Feel is less than good. I'll build you what you want, but I'll be shooting foam as long as I can get it, for me its a NO brainer,and I can make it look pretty with wood or skins.

[Bill Carlsen]

Here's an update on my Border limbs (you can also check my thread on "why I like ILF hunting bows"). I got an email from Sid and he talked a lot about the DAS geometry vs. Border geometry. It occured to me that my Winex limbs worked best at zero tiller. My Borders were positive 1/8" tiller. I set them for zero and the feel and follow thru I was looking for just fell right into place. Now I am wondering how (or if) much better those limbs would be with foam cores. But, I have to say, now that I have them figured out, thanks to Sid's help, they are every bit as good if not better than my 5# heavier Winex limbs.

In addition I have a few things I would like to add about the whole idea of ILF limbs, modern technology and why I think it is a great thing. My wife asked me about 6 years ago to set her up for hunting. Long story short....got her a DAS recurve, set it up with carbon/foam ILF Win&Win XQ 1 limbs set at 46# @ 26" and shooting a 500 grain arrow she was able to get a pass thru on a mature black bear. The advantage of the high tech carbon/foam limbs and the research done by the Japanese on their target limbs when put on a shorter hunting riser that is properly designed has my wife shooting a bow that performs more like a bow ten pounds heavier being shot with a 28" draw. The inherent stability and speed of the limbs make it possible for her to hunt with a modern recurve that far surpasses anything I have seen since my dad got me my first lemonwood longbow in 1951. Most of the disclaimers I see about modern technology come from people that seem to me who want to avoid the inevitable...that things change over time and that improvements can happen. Change is hard for some to accept but even Howard Hill had his longbows backed with fiberglass when he heard that it would improve the cast of his bows. And once he did it it was all he shot. Bear and Pearson have numerous patents on improvements in designs, manufacturing processes, and new materials, that I am sure all of are happy for them doing so.

As I age (I'll be 67 before this season ends) I am grateful for the advances that allows my wife to  hunt by my side and allows me to continue to use trad equipment rather than having to resort to compounds, crossbows or firearms.

You can look at advances in technology as undesireable or you can look at them as offering you more and perhaps better choices. I like having choices and I also like equipment that performs at high levels. So, my hat is off to guys like Bob Morrison, Sid at Border, Jim Belcher and all the others who are taking the risks and delving into doing things differently and hopefully coming up with more efficient "toys". Their investments in time and money can only raise the bar in regards to the improvement of the functioning of modern archery tackle.

[Sid]

OFFENSIVE POST REMOVED BY TERRY GREEN

[vermonster13]

The limbs are sealed to protect from scratching and wear not to keep moisture out in the Black Swan case. The limbs have nothing in them that will absorb moisture. Where I hunt humidity can run from non-existent to the high 90s and temperature can swing 30-40 degrees in a day. When we changed to carbon foam the bow prices didn't change a bit so the benefits come at no extra cost to the customer. I hunt, I don't shoot OLY, so the things that matter to me is how the material will function in my use and I like how the foam functions. The draw feel is a nice side benefit. Spend your money how you like and get a bow that fits you. Try some of each and you decide which is better for your situation.

[Terry Green]

Boarder Bows is now banned from Trad Gang....I've had it with this guy and his schillers who spam this site.

Sid has blatantly advertised over and over on this site and has been asked over and over not to.  He has never offered to sponsor this site yet demands free advertising.  This has been going on for years.

Now he is calling out sponsors of this site.  That's it.

No more Sid...no more boarder threads.  I've had it.

[Bob Morrison]

Ouch, What did I ever do to you Sid?? How smooth is a leather seat compared to Vinyl, come on give me a number????? Moisture absorbtion, not passing though a varish finish, You are wrong on that one and I feel you know that.. I really don't care that cores anyone uses. I will shoot foam until something better comes along. The foam and Carbon I use is available to anyone and everyone, Are any of your???

[Terry Green]

Bob....he's gone. Don't expect an answer cause we are manning all new registrations also.  I cannot believe the audacity of some folks.

 Funny too how some here made comment after comment and never even shot a foam core bow....or at least never owned one for any particular time.  Wonder if there was a hidden agenda like there has been in the past.

[hunt it]

           

[Bob Morrison]

Terry, I know what your saying. Thanks for a great site that will not put up with any Bull Ship..      

[Sixby]

I didn't see the post but I do know that to this point the conversation has been really gentlemanly. Although  ,, I did suspect an agenda but for the life of me can't figure out why. I will say this. Bob convinced me from a thread on this site to give foam a shot. I am thoroughly impressed and I am no novice. I have been a bow shooter for well over 50 years and have a lot of experience. The fastest limb I have ever built or shot is a double carbon , foam core limb I built. The first shot I took I could not believe how easy and soft the pull was. The arrow shot clear through my foam block. (new) I thought , hit a soft spot. Sbhot again. zipped through and hit the fence. This thing is unbelieveable. I am in 100 percent agreement with Bob Morrison and am completely impressed with the product. I am not a person that just jumps out and starts pushing a product or hypes something up. This is just a good product. period. The lighter a limb is at any given weight , the faster the return is. As to the longevity , I believe that would be relative to quality of product and application. Like Carbon , I am sure that some limbs are not foam friendly. It is brittle. Therefore I won't use it on my Talon Static with tight curves. I don't use carbon in that tight curve limb either. Sure wish I could but nothing doing. Anyway, Kudos to you Terry. I did not push my bows on here or send shills here although I have come here for a long time. Its just not right and I respect what you are doing. I waited until I was sure I wanted to be a sponser before I put the money down. Now I am glad I did and your action confirms my decision. God Bless You, Steve          

[onewhohasfun]

I had to bite my tongue thru this entire thread, wondering the same thing Terry. I have two shrews, one foam and one wood. I love them both. To Mr. Morrison,The fact that you have shared your knowledge of foam carbon and uni-weft with other bowyers shows me what a class act you are sir. I salute you. Tom Bateman

[Andy Cooper]

I'm ticked about this entire thread! Geez, just look what y'all have done. Now I'm gonna hafta buy a bow with foam and carbon limbs...just to see what all the hoopla is about! Jeepers, y'all!

         

[LongStick64]

I did NOT have any negative agenda in starting this thread. I asked about foam core limbs not about any one manufacturer. I did not start this thread to bash anyone or any material used. I wanted an education.
Mr. Morrison I have a riser and a set of your limbs, and I really feel fortunate to own them. I actually sent in an order for a new riser today. I sincerly apologize if this thread has brought any negative response your way. Not my intention for this thread.
I do not have any connection to any bowyer or manufacturer of any type. My thread was not intended to be a mudslinging affair.
I was honestly curious IF there was a valid reason to choose one limb core material over another.
Mods
If this thread seems to have a hidden agenda. It was not my intent. Please delete this thread if you deem necessary. But I am centainly not going to accept any notion that I had an "Agenda", that there is unacceptable to me.

[Hawkeye]

Peter,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no suspicion of your intent in starting this thread.  You had a really good question, and I was glad to hear Bob's thoughts (and some of the others).

Some of the rest of it was a little puzzling, though...        

[Dawn Patrol]

Well I missed all the fireworks but I will tell you this--After many years of shooting all kinds of bows the smoothest I have ever put in my hand are a Morrison and a Zipper, both with foam limbs.
I don't own a foam limb bow but I will pretty soon.