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Author Topic: Article by G Fred in the new TBW.. please re-read with a better explanition on pg 3  (Read 2440 times)

Offline NBK

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Funny how something as simple as shooting an arrow from a traditional bow can bring people of such varying opinions and beliefs into a common fold.
I consider myself a blend of modern and traditional.  I have absolutely no problem using technology to help hunt my prey, i.e. trailcameras, gps, synthetic clothing, etc.  However, I do draw the line on no baiting for deer, and absolutely no fences.  I will come to them on their terms, and my choice of weapon dictates that I must get very close.  And one more thing;  I believe in the power of choice, so to each is own.
Regards.
Mike


"I belong anywhere but in between"

Offline Brian Krebs

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I do NOT believe the use of trail cameras helps locate game.

 I started using trail cameras this year on my bear bait- to see just what was 'screwing me over' while I wasn't there. That is not locating game with a trail camera. I already knew where the bears were- at my bait !

 When I have put out trail cameras for deer and elk; I don't put them overlooking a valley where I can see which corner they come out; I find trails that are being used by deer or elk or both; and put cameras there to see them.
 I locate the place to put the camera with my knowledge of deer and elk habitat.

 You don't hold up a trail camera and follow the flash to the deer. You find the deer trails; or bait piles or salt licks; and put the camera up to see what is coming in.

 Now if your trying to locate a 'book' buck etc by doing this - your still locating the place  deer are: and then using the camera to see 'who' is there.

 I use google earth to look at areas; and that is the use of electronic equipment; and I talk to people here; and some come out and hunt with me and kill elk and deer.
 So - is this forum an electronic way to locate deer and game animals?
 Do we not help each other on this electronic forum to locate and take animals ?

 How many people use the outfitters section to locate an outfitter who then takes you to a place to take an animal? Is not the electronic communication done: to get you to the animal?

 One of the most popular threads here are those of trail camera pictures - and yet what percent of us kill an animal we see in those pictures? I bet it is less than .01%

 Yes - the guys that own the cameras might be taking some- especially over bait and mineral/salt lick situations - but is that due to the ~camera~ or the ~bait and/or mineral lick~ being there?

 Maybe at the end of this season; the guys and gals that have submitted trail camera pictures can show us pictures of the animals they have taken; and show us the trail camera pictures - with a short explanation about which was more integral to getting the animal- the camera; or the skill to take animal?

 I have set out cameras this year; gotten some nice pictures; but when the 30th comes around; I will be relying more upon figuring out what I knew before the pictures were taken: that deer and elk were using the trails.

 I will be as I have been; scouting on foot; driving from one location to another and getting out and wearing out boot leather to find animals.

 If you drive from Connecticut to Colorado; or you drive around your hunting areas - is not the electronics of the vehicle helping you locate animals ?  
 
 Right now the bucks have velvet- but tomorrow they could lose it; and the pre-rut will be on and all bets will be off at that time.
 And there will be bird hunters out there; and then Labor day - which always brings in crowds and motorcycles and atvs that will move things around.

 Now laser range finders ? Well that IS using electronics to take game. I predict that very soon bow sights will work this way: you will put your pin on the animal; the laser will determine the range; and the pin will adjust to the correct position for the shot- even as the animal moves.

 That is a far cry from sitting and watching deer or elk with binoculars; or putting up a trail camera.

 I think Fred makes valid points - but that does not mean he is 100% correct on things.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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I have the good fortune of considering Fred a solid friend. I can tell you for sure that he is a man of strong opinion and character, and thinks HARD about a subject before letting it be published. I read every word he writes, and consider his opinions very carefully. He has made me a better bow shooter with just a few simple words of advice. I'm not a "hero worshipper", but over time I have come to respect his opinions on most matters, not just bowhunting issues.

He does not consider himself the "Trad Police" in any way.

I shoot cabon arrows (usually), have a GPS in my pack, have driven LaClairs quad runner to my treestand, and have texted Ron about a huge buck bedded down in front of my stand (we were hunting in opposite sides of the state).

That said, I think Fred is right. Our woodsmanship sklls are diminished by technology...GPS vs compass...Last year I walked the extra mile to my stand rather than open the gate and use the quad runner, and I felt better about it (and saw more deer)...and nothing wrecks the solitude of the woods like a cell phone.....

So take Freds opnions for what they are, well thought out views on a subject he lives for. Next time you grab your longbow for a simple evening hunt, leave all (or at least some...) of your techno-junk in the truck. See if you don't feel a little closer to the woods.....

Offline TommyBoy

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Brian, with all due respect, how in the heck is taking a picture of an animal (with time and date attached) while you are not there not locating game???  It kinda sounds like Clinton's "that depends on what your definition of "is" is".
TommyBoy

Online champ38

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good post roger norris 2! Think I will take your suggestion and leave some of my techno-junk at home. Good thread guys, Shane
56" Shrew Classic Carbon 68@29
58" 2-P Centaur Cabon Elite 57@29

Offline Mojostick

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I'm not picking on anybody, especially someone as respected as Fred. I'm just wondering outloud about following the logic about many of the debates about "high tech" stuff.

One could easily argue that binoculars locate far more game than trail cams. And I use higher end binoculars and I don't use trail cams.

Which gives hunters a more "unfair" advantage? Again, you could argue that a set of good binocs gives far more of an edge to hunters than a static camera mounted on a tree. Just thinking out loud.

Offline mrjsl

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Quote
Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
I do NOT believe the use of trail cameras helps locate game.
Depending on how you use it, maybe not. Around here, 99% of the game cameras are aimed at a feeder.

Now a fellow that has 10 feeders out with a cam looking at each one is most certainly going to hunt the one that has bucks coming to it daily rather than the one that gave him 97 pictures of raccoons. Thanks, camera.

I can go into the woods where I hunt and show you trail after trail that look like rutted up cow paths. Are they worth hunting? Without a camera I need to spend some time in the woods to find out. Half or more of such trails are mainly being used at night. With cameras I don't have to put in the time.

Deer hunting (whitetail) is not about locating deer. Everyone knows deer are in the woods and you can see the sign they leave. They are around. It's about finding the right place to hunt - the specific place with the best odds. Where to put that stand or what patch of woods to slip through given the time of day and the time of year it is. Cameras can help with that immensely. The only way to learn how to find the right place without cameras is to get out there and observe deer with your eyes... A LOT! Cameras help you get it done without spending as much time in the woods, and whether you use them that way or not, that is what potential they have to offer. If I had 10-20 cameras, I could figure out a new hunting area in one season. If I have to wait and see the deer with my eyes it will take much longer.

If a guy is going to hunt in one stand and look at one feeder no matter what, then I don't see why he would want a camera or what purpose it would serve, but I think differently than most hunters.

Offline L. E. Carroll

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I would be really interested in the age of the various responders to this post?  Not trying to be a smart a$$ at all!! I am wondering if some of the comments seemingly agreeing with the article may not be coming from some of us older guys, who did not actually grow up with a lot of the technology that the younger generations have probably just grown with as a "Fact of Life" ? Heck I remember how excited I was when I saw a  color TV the first time, and dial up phones were the "norm".  :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:  A compass WAS "High tech at that time.

Gene   :laughing:
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Offline Gary Logsdon

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Gee John (Vargo), there you go paying attention again:^)
Gary Logsdon

Offline ishoot4thrills

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Hey, if the Wensel brothers advocate the use of trail cams, which they do(see Wensel article in Aug/Sept issue of TBM   :readit:   ), then they're alright by me!

   :thumbsup:
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35/55 Gold Tip Pink Nugents @ 30"
3 X 5" Feathers
19.9% FOC
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Offline Steve O

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John usually hits the nail on the head.  How can THIS

 


be OK and hunting bear over bait where you can't see 15 yards unethical.

Maybe it is the guy that is hunting for fame and fortune that is misusing the technology?  I do very little hunting near home and I have a clear conscience using trail cameras and the computer to help me scout and find new hunting areas from thousands of miles away.  My GPS and cell phone are much more safety items than anything else.  Like that old Clapton song says...It's in the way that you use it!

Those Black Widows Mr. Asbell is fond of are made with some pretty hi-tech CNC machines and some awful advanced materials...

Gene--I'm 42, and  BTW, that top bow on your list is going to have to go      :biglaugh:

Offline Bill Tell

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Well I for one think that trail cams should be banned from use during season.  I have posted this opinion before and I always take heat for it but here goes...

I sit in my truck in early light my iphone chirps I pull up the jpeg named stand1.jpg and it is a doe.  Nope no does for me today,  I'm hunting trophies.  chirp  stand14.jpg Oh now we are talking that is a rack.  Start truck and head to lower 8  chirp stand15.jpg yep he's walking south in the funnel.  Park... put the sand bag on the hood of my car shuck in a 30-06 round. Now I'm hunting,  POP!  Got him,

There is already the techno to do this.
"I'm going to find my direction magnetically. " Eddie Vedder

Offline Ben Maher

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Perhaps the article suggests that our search for woodsmanship is overtaken by technology .....
Look at any outdoor magazine and all the clickety clacks, gizmo's ,ATV's etc they are selling , promoting and drooling over. They generally have little to do with the wild and hunting as I know it .
But each to there own .
" All that is gold does not glitter , not all those who wander are lost "
J.R.R TOLKIEN

Offline Brian Krebs

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Well one thing this should not be about and that is the integrity of Fred. I have met him more than once and he is a good person and is not what is wrong with this world; or this thing we call 'traditional bowhunting'.

 I have hundreds of pictures of birds; and pine martins; and chipmunks and one time I set the camera up and it snowed; and the snow covered the ground; then the light of the day warmed it and melted it. So a slideshow of it as birds came in and all kinds of animals came in - shows the slowly melting snow. Its quite beautiful.

 The more beauty I see in nature; the more beauty I want to see in nature.

 Trail cameras are a little window into a world that I love; and into worlds that are different than mine- but show there own special beauty.    :archer:  

 That is why I like to see the trail camera threads- because I get to see more of nature; and of the animals in the wild I love so much.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Ben Maher

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Nicely put on all accounts Brian .....
" All that is gold does not glitter , not all those who wander are lost "
J.R.R TOLKIEN

Offline Jim Rocole

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Having followed this thread and the varied responses I waited unitl I read the article before commenting.

I thought this was one of Fred's better article's in quite a while. In my opinion his latest articles seem to be regenerated from his books. It has definetly made an impression and made people think. I did not get from the article that he was agianst everything that has technology but that maybe we are depending on it too much and that maybe we should at the very least look at our methods.

I do use the trail camera's because honestly I enjoy going out and retrieving that SD card and seeing the animals in the area. Truthfully withot them in WI, we never would have gotten our DNR to believe we have mountain lion in the state. Personally the most a trail camera tells me is that a decent buck is in the area, not when or where he is going to show up. I have a whole pile of pics of nice deer that are still alive and kickin.

Best article by Fred in a while.

Offline IndianaBowman

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Here's an article I wrote some time back. Jim Posewitz also has a good perspective on this.

“Techno Death” by Terry Receveur

“Wow, what a buck! He’s 60 yards out, but I can make the shot;” Bubba thought to himself. Bubba drew his 85% let-off, 70#, dual cam compound bow, with his three ball-bearing ultra smooth trigger release, and settled his 60-yard fiber optic pin on the buck. Upon squeezing the trigger the rest dropped away and the 200-grain, spiral wrapped carbon arrow with the 85-grain expanding mechanical head was on its way! At 330 fps it only took a nanosecond for the arrow to find its mark. The buck traveled about 50 yards before expiring in a heap. Bubba was ecstatic! He couldn’t help but think to himself that his carbon-filtered camo had kept the buck from smelling him. He was also proud of himself for shooting a buck he had on film from his trail camera. The buck was indeed magnificent. Five matching points per side and long tines and width. The buck would surely score well above the P&Y minimum. Bubba’s first buck eligible for the “books”!

Many would see this as a fantastic example of what bowhunting embodies today. Utilizing every technological advantage to take a great animal. It was all completely legal and exactly what the outdoor hunting shows depict on a daily basis. So, what’s wrong with the above scenario? The 60-yard shot, the scent shielding suit, the ultra fast bow, the trail camera, the 85% let-off bow?

The above scenario fails to address one of the core elements of a successful hunt, the chase! Only half of the equation was satisfied, the kill! "To kill is not success unless accompanied by the chase." Vance Bourjaily eloquently stated this interrelationship in his article “Hunting is Humane” in the February 15, 1964 issue of the Saturday Evening Post. “The two parts of the sequence must occur together, or there is no satisfaction. Killing, and this is generally misunderstood, is not pleasure at all if the challenge of hunting does not accompany it.”  Most will agree that the feeling of accomplishment, pride, satisfaction, and culmination of a truly successful hunt, is not the size or score of the animal harvested, but in the effort and energy expended in the pursuit! In fact, a truly successful hunt often times does not even include the killing of an animal. Robert Ruark summarized a short anecdotal quotation as follows: “There was a Russian school of acting which once maintained stoutly that a good tragic actor had to suffer. The same must be true of all hunters… The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition.”  Theodore Roosevelt was also a student of the chase, as evidenced in the following quote: “Of course in hunting one must expect much hardship and repeated disappointment; and in many a camp, bad weather; lack of shelter; hunger; thirst, or ill success with game, renders the days and nights irksome and trying. Yet the hunter worthy of the name always willingly takes the bitter if by so doing he can get the sweet, and gladly balances failure and success, spurning the poorer souls who know neither.”  I would venture a guess that Bubba is a poor soul.  

I doubt Bubba is alone in his lack of knowledge concerning the chase.  Bubba is most likely a late 20s to early 40s guy who grew up on instant information and gratification. The television and Internet have brought a whole world of information and experiences into his home at the touch of a button. The problem lies in that the whole story is not being shown or described. It is simply a glimpse of a series of events and a choreographed ending to provide instant gratification and satisfaction to Bubba. What are we to expect of Bubba?  All he knows is that you can purchase product “X” and have nearly instant success as depicted on TV. Of course, success doesn’t come that easy; therefore there must be another short cut or gadget that Bubba overlooked. The killing of game ultimately comes, but at the expense of shortcutting the wilderness experience. The technology available allows this!  It is technology that most threatens our sport of bowhunting. Not only for traditionalist, but also for all bowhunters. As technology advances and shortcuts emerge the chase is lessoned and the kill increased.

Dedicated seasons for bowhunting were developed in recognition of the fact that bowhunting is supposed to be hard. The allotted days a field were apportioned in direct relationship with the degree of difficulty for attainment of management goals. Success rates for bowhunters are soaring, and it is only prudent to expect the allotted number of days afield to be reduced.  I also submit that the chase is also lessoned as described above. This interrelationship of technology and diminished “thrill of the chase” is described in the following quote from Aldo Leopold: “Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do, and sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation in the use of these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things…  I have the impression that the American sportsman is puzzled; he doesn’t understand what is happening to him. Bigger and better gadgets are good for industry, so why not for outdoor recreation? It has not dawned on him that outdoor recreations are essentially primitive, atavistic; that their value is contrast-value; that excessive mechanization destroys contrasts by moving the factory to the woods or to the marsh. The sportsman has no leaders to tell him what is wrong. The sporting press no longer represents sport; it has turned billboard for the gadgeteer. Wildlife administrators are to busy producing something to shoot at to worry much about the cultural value of the shooting."

Hunting in general is also threatened by technology. The days when the public perceived the hunter as one who matched wits with the beasts on a level playing field are long gone. Gone also is the prestige and allure of the sportsman. Theodore Roosevelt described the past allure and the sportsman as follows: “In hunting, the finding and killing of the game is after all but a part of the whole. The free, self-reliant, adventurous life, with its rugged and stalwart democracy; the wild surroundings, the grand beauty of the scenery, the chance to study the ways and habits of the woodland creatures – all these unite to give the career of the wilderness hunter its peculiar charm.” The charm is gone and the public now sees a fully gadgeted nimrod heading a field to slay the defenseless creature.  Technology has eliminated the defenses of the prey. Instinctive safety zones of game have been breached. Superior eyesight, sense of smell, and the desire to procreate are all addressed and manipulated by technology to increase kill rates.

It is the general non-hunting population who will determine our hunting future. If the degradation of the hunter, in the minds of Joe Public continues, they will legislate out our ability to pursue game.

I choose to self-limit and pursue game, not just kill it. I choose this for the reason verbalized by Sitting Bull, “when the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice, for we are hunters and we want our freedom.”  I want my freedom and to use every form of technology and gadget available ensures nothing more than “Techno Death”.

A closing prayer to our future by Saxton Pope: “May the gods grant us all space to carry a sturdy bow and wander through the forest glades to seek the bounding deer; to lie in the deep meadow grasses; to watch the flight of birds; to smell the fragrance of burning leaves; to cast an upward glance at the unobserved beauty of the moon. May they give us the strength to draw the string to the cheek, the arrow to the barb and loose the flying shaft, so long as life may last.”

Offline L. E. Carroll

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Indiana Bowman

    :wavey:
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Offline ChuckC

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Ben. .  that may be one of the points.  The search for woodsmanship.  There is less and less of that going on and more and more techno jockeying going on.

Is that bad. .    well that isn't mine to say.  

But we are losing something.
ChuckC

Offline Bill Carlsen

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All I really want or need from my fellow "trad" archers is the freedom that Asbell and others have to do it their way so I can do it my way. It is sort of like the golden rule...I'll respect his opinion about what works for him. All I ask in return is that he offer me the same respect....and by "him" I mean all of you who have a very narrow view of what trad is or isn't and want the rest of us to take some sort of rap about making things too easy. If you lived where I live, in NH, you would know what hard hunting is and you would use every legal tactic to get it done.

I can remember Ryan Rothhaarr talking about taking 26 does off his dad's farm to keep the herd in balance. I simply cannot imagine that many  "excess" deer in one place. If I "see" 26 deer a year I am having a good year...with a 3 month season and being retired!

I think that many of the elite bowhunters out there, you know the celebritries of our sport, are really pretty spoiled and they may have forgotten how hard it can be or  how hard it is for those of us who do not live in areas as rich in game as they do. I may not have $2000 to purchase a big buck hunt in Iowa or Kansas...so I spend $200 for a trail camera and get a few pics of a big buck that wonders where I hunt. Often I never even see that buck while hunting but his pic on my computer keeps me jizzed for the day I may get a crack at him...or one of his girlfriends.

All technology really does is give those of us that need it some better choices to make and it shouldn't at all make any one of us feel disrespected for taking advantage.

And as far as I personally take technology with me in my pursuits it in no way dilutes my love of nature, of hunting, of a beautiful sunrise, of walking out of the woods lighted by a full moon. It doesn't make taking the shot easier or slow down my heart rate while doing it. I love it out there and that is the one thing that we all have in common....I hope.
The best things in life....aren't things!

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