Penetration loss...too close?

[hvyhitter]

After reading several threads on penetration and bow weight/broadhead/arrow weight questions and then seeing the picture of the buck on another thread with marginal penetration, I figured I would post my observations on another aspect thats seldom addressed. The nature of our quest is to take animals with trad gear and that means getting close enough to hit where we want on the animal. But sometimes I think we get WAY TOO CLOSE!

In the 18 yrs of shooting trad with mid range (60-65#) bows with arrows that are in the 600 to 750gr range. Penetration shouldnt be an issue but I have had at least 4 instances were Ive had minimal penetration on shots that should have been blow throughs(ribs only, no shoulderblades). The common facter for these shots were that they were all in the 10 to 12 FEET or less range and the arrow seemed to KICK on impact causing poor penetration. I figure the arrows were still occillating quite a bit from paradox on impact, hitting while the head or shaft were at an angle. The same as a poorly tuned shaft.
 
In the past 8 years I have limited my shots and set ups to at least 10-12 YARDS to let the arrow straiten out and havent had any more problems. If the deer are too close I just dont shoot. I am guessing that this may a reason for some hits that should get better penetration but dont, and we blame a bow/broadhead/arrow combination that sould work.....Anyone else notice this in their hunting????

[beetlebailey1977]

Maybe true....But for me I would regardless of how close.

[bornagainbowhunter]

I have noticed that a super close shot usually looks like the arrow kicks to the side when it hits, but only had one instance that penetration was poor.  I still got the buck and I still shoot when they are only feet away.

God Bless,
Nathan

[YORNOC]

Never got a shot under 12 yards, but you can bet I'll be checking into it. Thanks for the thought hvyhitter.

[mnbwhtr]

I beleive it could be a factor but having shot some animals as close as 4 feet(most in cornfields) I've never had a problem.

[straitera]

Switched to heavier LB's & 2-blades after just this experience out of a 65# compound. Good arrow flight & sharp BH's critical.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

I've heard of similar issues while people were hog hunting. This is an interesting subject.

[Hookeye]

6 yards the closest, blew right through (done a couple of times).

What degree of occilation would cause such a problem (if it does)? What shaft materials are used, rates at which the shaft steadies out (recovery) may differ substantially.

Are we limiting this to the possibility of arrow oscillation or are we also factoring in added waves due to bow/arrow setup, tuning differences (or lack of it)?

The reasons why I ask these things..........at Cloverdale yrs ago there was a 4 ft wide gap between saplings, about 7 ft or so ahead of the stake. Both trees were chewed up pretty badly from impacts. That meant people either peeked and tossed their arrows into the trees on the way down, or they had that much whip.

That meant side to side by 2 ft off center, at 7 feet forward.

And I saw this on a couple of shots there, where the gap was HUGE and nobody should have come close to hitting lumber.

I think a lot of folks are shooting whipping setups. Do know that some folks get nervous when a trad guy asks to shoot through the shop's chrono. I did about 2 weeks ago, and the owner was suprised, even made comment, about how straight my arrows were in the very close backstop.

Paper tune showed bulletholes  

[Bill Carlsen]

I shot a deer on the ground a while back from 9 feet. The arrow was still in paradox and it entered the mid rib cage and exited near the last rib on the opposite side...but it was not a pass thru.The deer was perfectly broadside at the time of the shot. I was shooting a 67# longbow, lodgepole shaft with a Hunter's Head.

[chopx2]

If you read Dr. Ashby's arrow penetration studies closely you will see the number one factor in penetration is a perfectly straight flying arrow.

What he has also found and I have been playing with with great results on the practice range is that with Extreme FOC >30% it is possible to get the arrow completely out of paradox and straight in as little as 3 yds with a bare shaft. In fact I believe Dr. Ashby has even gotten this at 3 feet!

Sounds hard to believe, but you can tweak your arrow flight considerably with these Extreme FOC arrows. I know I can't wait to get a shot a deer to see the results of my 650gr 34% FOC arrows. Just remember you will need much stiffer spines than you are used to. He discovered that for each 1% foc over 19% FOC you get better than 1% increase in penetration.

And yes I have drunk the cool aid and went back for seconds...lol

[Chris O]

I definitely agree with your point and could see this as limiting penetration. My first deer was probably 5 yards from my tree and I did not hit anything other than ribs. The arrow only penetrated to the opposite side of the ribcage without piercing it. I was shooting a 50 pound bow at my 28 inch draw with a 480 grain arrow.

[Friend]

Don't believe I have read that Ultra-EFOC may specifically enable someone to increase their effective range. However, with respect to the subject of this thread, I am rethinking the Ultra-EFOC benefits. By limiting your shots to not less than 10-12 yards you may given up 7 to 10 yards of effective range.

What would some archers and Trad Hunters do to increase their effective range? Some answers would be astonishing. Yes, we most always refer to extending our effective range by shooting competantly at a further distance. If we are competent out to 20 yards but we must limit ourself to shots shorter than 10 - 12 yards, then our effective range is only 8 to 10 yards.
 
I am extremely pleased with the quite positive results of my 25% EFOC arrows. I am just now getting my feet wet with regards to Ultra-EFOC and am anxious to experience the results for myself.

It is possible that having an arrow tuned down to 3 yards could result in greater opportunites and in some rare instances.if I am not going too far out on a limb here, save your life.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Hookeye:

Paper tune showed bulletholes      

IMO, there is your answer.  When I first started paper tuning, I was surprised by how much crooked flight tear I was getting from arrows that looked to be flying great.  Fletching can straighten out an arrow by the time you can see the flight.  Tune your rig to shoot clean at close range and you will see greatly improved performance at all ranges.  It sure made a big difference for me.

[hunt it]

I have shot a number of big hogs at under 10ft and have seen exactly what you are describing. The arrow has not had enough distance to straighten out and this hinders penetration. In all of these cases I was shooting 72 or 75# bows with heavy arrows in the 700gr area with 300gr up front. Pentration has always been enough to do the job but no pass throughs. Shots at 10yrds plus will result in pass through.

[Bonebuster]

I have taken two deer at ranges within 10 feet.

One with a wood arrow (hex pine), and one with a carbon arrow. Both were heavy arrows from the same bow. The wood arrow actually broke in TWO places at impact. The carbon arrow blew through like the deer was not even there.

The wood arrow was shot from above the deer as I was semi dangling from my Sneaky Sack, the other was from the ground, actually shot from an upward angle.

[Hot Hap]

I shot a small buck at 18". Had to lean backwards to draw my bow. I found the arrow about 20 yards away.
Bow was 52# @ 30"
Arrow was 660 grains w/ww
Hap