How far is too far??

[Str8Shooter]

I think the trouble with determining an exact distance that you'll shoot in the woods is the number of variables. Shadows can make a 10 yd. shot look like 20. A deer silhoutted in the sun at 35 yds might be highlighted so well that it looks a lot closer. Like a lot of people say it depends on the circumstances.

Personally, I don't believe the long distance shots are inherently wrong. From talking to a lot of people managing a proshop (compound and traditional)I think most people make much better shot choices as the distance increases. I was amazed at how many guys lost animals at spittin' distances because they got overconfident simply because the shots were close.

I guess all I'm saying is that the most important thing is choosing the correct shot for the situation.

[pseman]

I have to respectfully disagree that confidence, shooting ability, or equipment have nothing to do with shooting distance. Think about it, you said that you could stack arrows at 80 yards with a compound. If that is the case, then you could certainly shoot at a deer/animal at further distances than a trad bow(equipment). Shooting ability has everything to do with how far one should shoot. My ability limits me to 20-25yds but others can shoot much better than me and could shoot further. And confidence goes hand in hand with shooting ability. If you don't have one, then you won't have the other.

I hate more than anything to wound an animal and am very careful with shot selection(not just yardage) but to set a maximum distance for anyone and everyone is to assume that everyone has the same ability.

KirkII  -  this is not a criticism of you, just a difference of opinion.  

[Alsea]

Lots of good philosophy posted, but if I interpret your question correctly, you're asking how do you get over the 15 yard plateau? What do you need to do to become a better shot? Correct?

Well, this 15 yard plateau is pretty much the limit that many who are self taught, with home designed form, ever achieve. To get beyond this point it's neccessary to learn how to shoot. In other words, you need to develop correct and repeatable form along with an aiming system or else learn to be content within your present limitations.

However, should you choose to progress, there's no need to spend years at it. With the proper coaching you should see a marked improvement in a few weeks and months. Simply put, there are no short cuts, that's why it's the hard way.

It's not just practice, practice, practice! It's perfect practice.

You have to understand what it is you're trying to develop so that it can be broken down into sequences and then melded into one process.

Before I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
 
A critical factor in down range accuracy is yardage estimation, consistent anchor and consistent draw length.

With every change in posture, everything else changes. Most significantly, draw length. It's a simple fact that if you don't pull the bow back the same each time, the arrow will go in a different place. The terrain that I hunt is never level or even and I often shoot from one knee. So I have developed consistent form from the waist up and disregard the lower half of my stance since I can't control the terrain.

One of the most valuable tools is the clicker. It will quickly define your true draw length and awaken muscles you didn't know you had.

Another is the bow sight. Overlooked and derided, this valuable tool is the quickest stepping stone to barebow accuracy. It can be as simple as a matchstick taped to the riser. It's the quickest way to learn how to control your shot and develop form. After you know how things are supposed to feel, you can apply what you've learned to barebow instinctive style of shooting, but there is no substitute for finding these things out. You can take it for granted that all the great shots, in spite of the videos and books that they hawk, are well acquainted with these learning techniques, so why shouldn't you be too?

There's tons more to learn and digest, but those are two methods that you can get right to work with. In the beginning you'll likely become frustrated with it as it gets worse before it gets better and the natural tendency is to revert to whats become comfortable, but no pain, no gain!

If it was as easy as watching a video, reading a book and "becoming the arrow", there'd be thousands of Howard Hills and Byron Fergusons around. It ain't and there ain't. To become a great bowshot requires determination, dedication and hard effort. There are no short cuts, but there's lots of info available online, providing you have an open mind and are willing to try something different. You might as well, Seems you're stuck in a rut at the moment. No need to stay there.

[Matt E]

Kirk mentioned that he shot long distance competition and he doesn't take the long shots.he is aware of the chances and knows a low percentage shot when it arises. It has nothing to do with whether you are a good shot or not. A deer is a living animal and one can't predict what it may do. I have seen the results of good shooters making bad shots, it isn't pretty. We shoot traditional equiptment by choice. This imposes limitations on our distance.I use to shoot in 3-d competition years ago . I was a fair shooter even won at state level and I put distance limitations on my hunting shots, not because of my shooting ability but because of the unpredictable things that will invariably take place in a hunting situation.

[John Dill]

Great post Alsea!

[8th Dwarf]

Generally, I limit myself to 20 yards.  I TRY to get closer...it's hard to screw up at 8 yards!

I shoot hundreds of arrows a week.  A long time ago, Paul Schafer taught me to "stump shoot" from 5-100 yards.  His reasoning was not to shoot game at 100 yards, but TO IMPRINT ARROW TRAJECTORY IN HIS BRAIN!  Soon after he taught me this, I was doing unbelievably well at ranges even out to 80-90 yards.

The point here is this: if you are completely familiar with arrow trajectory, you will be able to shoot much better than if you only practice out to what you think will be your maximum range...let's say 20 yards.

Over the years I have passed 12 yard shots because my brain told me "No".  I have taken 40 yard shots because my brain told me "Yes".  

I don't shoot over open lawns at standard targets either.  I shoot at natural things out in the woods...stumps, limb staubs, heads of timothy grass, whatever.  That way, when an animal steps out to allow a shot, I know the animal's size and just shoot.  I never think about range...just the animal and the arc of my arrow are all that is really important.

I hope this might shed a wee bit of light on your question.

Too Short

[Steertalker]

AMEN!!!!  Alsea!

Brett

[vermonster13]

Alsea has it covered real well there. Improvement takes work and dedication.

[nel]

I passed up a 12 yard shot at the biggest moose I'd ever seen, massive rack...the encounter had started out with me on my knees about 6' from his front hoofs...fresh gashes on his shoulders from sparring...he had lunged into the lake we were beside and was belly deep in water...I came to full draw had a few seconds to make the shot. But for some reason, him standing in the water freaked me out for a second and I didn't release, I wasn't sure.

Don't regret not shooting, and the memory of the point blank stare down will last my life...

[Diamond Paul]

I read an article in TB about the man who came up with the Catquiver.  To paraphrase him, "If arrows ain't flying, nothing's dying!"  Hunting is not a sure thing, ever.  If you feel comfortable with the shot, no one has the right to tell you not to take it.  We all have the right to miss, and we all have probably wounded animals at point blank range; I know I have.  I wasn't happy about it, but that is hunting.  I shoot at forty yards practicing all the time, but I would not want to shoot at an animal that far.  You are the only one who has to live with the results of your shot. . .so, you decide.

[Van/TX]

Before I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
 

Alsea, with all due respect that stuff will seldom work in a bowhunting situation with traditional equipment(JMHO).  First of all you would have to know the "exact" distance if you have an exact aiming system.  Even with the fastest traditional recurve and light arrows a mis-judged distance of 4 yards or less (43 vs 47 for example) will result in most likely missing the vitals completely.  You would first of all have to use a range finder to get the exact distance.  Then your form and everything during the shot process would have to be perfect.  This is hard to do on a marked distance target course under ideal conditions using target equipment (at least for me when I shot good, impossible now)    

Bottom line is, if one is excessively quessy about wounding and not recovering an animal using bows and arrows then perhaps another tool should be used.  Releasing an arrow at an animal at any distance under ideal conditions is not a slam dunk. If it was then why would one use that method to hunt (assuming we are not hunting in order to survive).  If there is no fear of the unknown then how can one be excited.  If one is not excited then what's the purpose of doing it in the first place     Might as well sit home and watch "I Love Lucy" re-runs...Van

As a side note I'm not beyond taking a shot at something at my point on if I'm fairly confident of the distance.  At any distance you have a 50/50 chance.  Hit or miss    ...Van

[kennym]

This is prolly one of the most argued points of bowhunting.

My limit is about 20,but I have passed at less than 10 and killed a doe at 26.(and a rabbit at about 60,but I was much less experienced then)

Everyone has a different level of ability,confidence,and  everything in the equation,and therefore must make his own call when the moment comes. JMO

[SteveMcD]

Yup. What Van said.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This has turned out to be a very good post here...there are is lot of valuable information, feelings, and experience being shared here....Alsea is point on in his philosophy....i was there, and i spent years disciplining myself and fine tuning equipment until i reached unbelievable goals....if you don't put in the time and effort you will never be part of the 10 percent that harvest 90% of the animals....

Van has a good point too though....if you are queasy about the idea of getting a bad shot, maybe another hobby would be a better idea.....There is always an element of risk with hunting with any weapon......Which brings us

Too Short has got an excellent philosophy regarding shooting in the field at many distances and learning your arrow trajectory to a point where yardage is irrelevant....

you add that to Diamond Paul's summary that limiting anyone's yardage to a set yardage is wrong...."YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS TO LIVE WITH THE RESULTS OF YOUR SHOT" This is absolutely the truth.....

Everyone has a different level of ability,confidence, and everything in the equation,and therefore must make his own call when the moment comes. JMO

Kennym sums it up pretty much the same......

This would be a good read for a beginner...there are many valid points here.....I'm going to stand down on ethics here guys....what seems ethical in one situation to one person, could seem dead wrong in another's eyes that has already "been there...done that"......

I have just watched many hunters I've been around for many years slowly but surely start shooting farther and farther with faster and better equipment.....they were not the only ones that had to live with those gut shots and lost animals....i was constantly called upon for my tracking skills from these guys...so I too, had to live with the results of their actions....the general public is watching these results too guys......my only hope is that those who are sleeping good shooting long distances and wounding MORE animals than is typically the case....is smart enough to hunt alone, & keep it to themselves.....

Full circle ...."How far, is too far? Only the individual can determine this for himself through experience in the field with equipment he's familiar with...."If nothings Flying, nothings dying" i hate that expression...but its true.....hunting is not for the timid at heart....we are challenging ourselves using primitive weapons, trying to kill animals here....what is more important? the challenge, or the kill?  that could kick off another topic in itself......

Shoot to the best of your ability....choose your shots at wild game with care, or reckless abandon as you will.....sleep well guys...the Lord is watching...as well as the anti hunters.....Kirk

[Alsea]

Originally posted by Van/TX:
   

Before I ever shoot, I know with absolute certainty, that at 45 yards, my point on distance, if I do everything well, my arrow will hit exactly where I want it to or within one or two inches of it. I know and understand every part of the sequence that guarantees it will. I also know beforehand where my arrow will strike at all distances in between. I use a gap aiming system, classic upper body form (modified BEST system), back tension, 3 under and tab.
 

Alsea, with all due respect that stuff will seldom work in a bowhunting situation with traditional equipment(JMHO).  First of all you would have to know the "exact" distance if you have an exact aiming system.  Even with the fastest traditional recurve and light arrows a mis-judged distance of 4 yards or less (43 vs 47 for example) will result in most likely missing the vitals completely.  You would first of all have to use a range finder to get the exact distance.  Then your form and everything during the shot process would have to be perfect.  This is hard to do on a marked distance target course under ideal conditions using target equipment (at least for me when I shot good, impossible now)            

[/b]

Van, I do use a laser range finder when I hunt. I just don't talk about it much around the boards. If I don't know the yardage I won't drop the string without ranging first unless it's pointblank. By pointblank, I mean 30 yards and under. Once I know the yardage, I know where to put the arrow and I know how to get it there. That's a lot different than poking and hoping, which is what a lot of guys are stuck with since they never learned how to shoot to begin with, they just went out in the backyard and started flinging arrows.

This ain't Texas out here, if I get a shot at a Blacktail under 55 yards I might take it, depending on the circumstances, because it may be the only opportunity I get, but I always range them first. The point is, I know how to make that shot. Someone who's limited to under 20 yards doesn't. I was real happy to see them range finders come along, back in the day, it was all guess work. Love them range finders, really cuts the wounding down. I wish more wheel bow hunters would use them. If I had a dollar for every story I've heard about elk wounded because somebody misguessed the yardage, you and I could have a pretty good party.  If you can't judge yardage and won't use a LRF, better stick to close shots. I don't care how much of the arrow you've become, that stuff only works close up.

It's possible to hunt every day of deer season out here and never see a buck, let alone get a shot at one. We don't have the deer populations you easterners have and the critters are pretty wild. Early deer season runs concurrent with elk season, only 30 days to get the job done, so except for a few guys that focus on Mulies, everybody"s chasing elk. I don't hesitate to take elk at 40 yards. I prefer him to be 10 yards with his head down quartering away, but if it's 40 I'm good with it.

During Nov. we have a late hunt for Blacktail that lasts a little over 2 weeks. These are wild deer that you have to go out into the woods and hunt down. You can't pattern them and they don't come into farm fields to find hot does. The buck you saw last night will be on a different ridge 10 miles away tomorrow morning looking for does. These days I often have to hike several miles behind locked timber company gates just to start hunting. No ATVs, just boot leather both ways. No driving up to the kill with a quad or pickup, you quarter it up and pack it out on your back unless you've got critters. If you aren't a good shot AND a good hunter, you eat tag soup. It's even hard to find a doe to kill, let alone get close enough to her to shoot her.

Whitetail snipers and pig stickers have no idea what it's like to hunt out here (grin) and probably wouldn't like it too much. Torrential rain and rough country, but we definitely don't turn ours noses up at long shots. It ain't that big of a deal really, I think that the reason so much is made of it on the boards is just a reflection of how poorly the average Trad can shoot along with the over abundance of whitetail in the east that makes longer shots impractical since all you have to do is sit tight and wait for another one to walk under your tree and there is way too much romanticising about cresting, bowyering and fletching and not enough schooling on how to learn to shoot, except for the advice to get Byron"s or Fred"s book. Terry G. does what he can to help, but there's more than one way to get to the top of the mountain.
 
A good shot opportunity can come at 10 yards or 35, you just never know, but ( I ) may only get one shot opportunity a season and I have to make it count.

I've been doing this for nearly 50 seasons and my freezer"s always full. I don't buy ANY red meat, except some to feed the doggie.

Let's see if we can't get Portugeejn  shooting better.    :D

[longbowman]

I agree that this post is a good one.  In the 60's when I started it was a common thing to shoot when you could because you wont kill a thing if you don't shoot.  The treestand wasn't commercial yet.  I've killed deer at 70+ yds.  Several big game animals at 40+ yds.  After 45 yrs. of bowhunting and keeping records of all kills my average is still 18 yds. even with those mentioned in the math.  I too practice only in the woods at all unknown distances with more shots over 40 yds. than those 20 and less.  When I do shoot the normal hunting distances it's like shooting at monster sized targets.  The nrin is a wonderful tool that takes care of things if you practice correctly.

[Van/TX]

Van, I do use a laser range finder when I hunt. I just don’t talk about it much around the boards. If I don’t know the yardage I won’t drop the string without ranging first unless it’s pointblank. By pointblank, I mean 30 yards and under. Once I know the yardage, I know where to put the arrow and I know how to get it there. That's a lot different than poking and hoping, which is what a lot of guys are stuck with since they never learned how to shoot to begin with, they just went out in the backyard and started flinging arrows.  

Alsea, that was a great reply.  I suspected you were not just shooting off at the mouth              

   

I don’t care how much of the arrow you’ve become, that stuff only works close up.  

I especially liked that statement        :D   ...
 

[Steve Kendrot]

I've been shooting trad gear for about 13 years and I still have not been able to increase my effective range beyond 15-20 yards. Some days I can hit at 25-30, most days I can't consistently enough to risk a shot at a deer. While I'm no Wensel brother, I've killed between 30-40 deer with a recurve and I can think of very few times where I would have had a shot opportunity "if only I was consistent at 30 yards." While I still aspire to get better at the longer shots, I doubt it would increase my hunting success much. The vast majority of deer I've killed have been 10 yards and under.

[Steve Kendrot]

Should have read it all before I posted... Alsea makes great sense and I think its time for me to try some of the techniques I've resisted for so long. Clicker etc... My mentor was one of the best long distance shots I've met and he used a clicker and was a former tournament shooter that knew all the aiming tecniques. With that said... I'm not sure its fair to disparage us eastern white tail hunters just cause we're over run with the buggers. Close shots are the norm because we have these things called trees that have a nasty habit of clogging up shooting lanes. In the areas I hunt, there are very few places where I can shoot farther than 20 yards without a branch reaching out and grabbing my arrow.

Nevertheless, despite my eastern pride being wounded by a long range sharpshooter hurling barbed insults from the great state of Oregon,       I think I will break out my old clicker and give it a whirl again. Even if it does add ten punds to my draw! Thanks for the inspiration Alsea! I'll write back when I'm breaking nocks at 50 yards...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Alsea....a fellow Oregonian i see.....you ain't kidding about rough wet hunting conditions.....but some of the other stuff you just stated above should be mixed with a grain of salt....i probably hunt some of the same country you do occasionally, and i shoot all my Black tail deer between 12 & 25 yards....with all due respect my man....black tail deer live and die in the same square mile of ground....they don't travel 2 miles much less 10.....maybe we don't hunt the same area bro....just about everywhere i hunt the deer are thick as rabbits...if you are finding it hard to find does, i ....well...er....i don't know what to say....you do hunt with your eyes open i take it? i gotta put a fence up just to keep em out of my garden.....

Heck...I wont razz you anymore Alsea. these black tail deer are not a cake walk to harvest...they are sneaky and learn real quick....the dad burn brush is a jungle most everywhere the deer population is really dense too.....I like those areas with locked gates myself too. we take bicycles in 4 or 5 miles on some of those roads to get away from the boot leather crowd.....it's still darn tough getting an elk out any way you look at it....I've got about 30 years hunting Oregon under my belt now, and 17 years in archery hunting. this will be my first season coming up hunting with tradition gear. I'm looking forward to it immensely.....

Ya wanna buy a range finder bro? I'm done with mine now.....if i can't harvest my critters under 30 yards, I'll pull out a beef steak, or gnaw on a pork chop instead....i raise my own.....it's very seldom i have an empty freezer....some years i get elk meat and sell the beef, but i always get a deer if i want one....

let me know there bro....if ya have a hard time finding a doe to shoot at, I'll pen one up in my garden for you...    

I got a good sense of humor Alsea, but don't go pulling the boys legs too hard about hunting the western jungles.....after about 10 years of hunting these parts without drowning, you can even pattern the elk....i know EXACTLY where I'm going to harvest my elk this year....same herd has been in the same draw for 15 years straight....i think they teach the next generations the safest routes to follow,,,,I'm going to take a nice cow at 12 yards with the long bow i just built last month.....i might even take a deer this year too, if the mood suits me.....Kirk