How far is too far??

[JasonV]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
Ethic's is something that is detrmined by the majority, not the individual Jason.

Not picking an arguement - but I couldn't disagree with that statement more vehemently.  It takes more than a consensus to make an action "right" or "wrong".

As childish as it sounds: its the same thing our mothers tried to teach us when they said: "If your friends all decided to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?"
Ethics are MOST useful when they guide you AWAY from doing what the majority would have you think is acceptable, when you in fact know it to be wrong, and vice-versa.
Its what makes a guy like Paul Brunner pass up a 12 yard shot, but take a 40 yard shot...
There are too many factors involved to arbitrarily impose a "limit" on distance that applies to everyone.
My statement about 100 yards was intentionally exaggerated to make that point.  Its NOT the distance alone that makes a shot a good choice or a bad choice - its a whole array of factors - and every one of them has to be taken into consideration on every shot BY THE PERSON TAKING THE SHOT.  We don't hunt by committee.

Especially when it comes to hunting, I think that "ethics" are a VERY - and I would argue,  an EXCLUSIVELY - personal issue.  The individual is the only one who will ever be qualified to accurately evaluate the "ethics" of his/her choices.

[Alsea]

Hey KirkII,

Good luck with your first season hunting with the stick.

Do you hunt the coast much?

Here's a curious little guy I saw yesterday down by Siltcoos. There's a big tom in there and I bet he don't make it to season. He's 70 yards away by the way, that's a little far even for me...lol! I've been hunting black bear since April 1 and I've seen a total of 5 Blacktail in the coast range, including this fellow.

 

Blacktail hunting is still pretty good east of I5 and west of the Cascade divide, but it sucks on the coast.  Between Hair Loss Syndrome, too many rifle doe tags, bears and cats, there's not many left over here. Consider yourself fortunate. I've started hunting further east the last two years, over towards Sweet Home. The guys that know the country around there do pretty fair hunting with rifle, muzzle loader and compounds. I only know one fellow that regularly takes bucks with a recurve in the area west of Sweet Home and a few of them have been close to 40 yard shots. His hero pics are posted here on TG, but he kept the yardage to himself and I won't tell you his handle, he don't need the grief.

[Jesse Minish]

I have been in western Oregon many times. Never hunting but during hunting season to work, hike and fish. Had family in Grants Pass and in the Portland area. I know what your thick, rainy area is like. I live in western Washington so I know what rain and thick forests look like. Also I have seen the amount of deer down there and think there are alot more than were I live. I dont think that anyone who is a good hunter should have a hard time not shooting at deer at 55 yards. Eating tag soup is only one way of looking at it. I dont mean to offend but I think unless you are loud and dont know what you are doing you should not have a problem keeping your shots under 30 yards.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Jason....I agree completely with ethics being a very personal thing.....but the guide lines of what is ethical and unethical in the pubic eye is "Detemined" by the majority....hey if you feel confident flinging arrows 80 yards while hunting.....Great! after a few of them step forward on you while your arrow is in route, and you find yourself trailing intestines though the brush intill you hear the groaning of the wounded animal a few times.....it just might change your "Personal ethics" some.... i'm not saying this doesn't happen at close yardage sometimes too....these critters move....but the odds of a clean kill are much higher at close yardage.....this is a sport....a very fine sport at that....i shot long distance for years and was darn good at it too..... i just can't live with wounding animals more often because i'm taling longer shots is all.....A good hunter doesn't need to take long shots......a hunter that needs to take longer shots to get his meat, should change his tactics some or go back to rifle hunting in my opinion.....but that's the whole point....it's just an opinion of mine i've developed over the years....To each his own bro....

Alsea....i'll send you a PM later....i'm heading for the shop......Kirk

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Alsea, nice photo! cute little guy there.....I HAVE definately noticed the deer population in the coastal range has dropped significanly in the last few years...i'm actually seeing the mountain lions in broad day light now Too                

The bear populationhas has really increased do to the "No dogs allowed" law too....i'm not a bear hunter myself, but almost shot a couple of them that i got too close to over the last few years....i HATE it when they make that popping sound in their jaws.....espeacilly when you can smell em, and not see em....        

I actually don't pay much attention to the deer on the coast.....when i'm down there i'm stalking those massive Roosevelts myself....I've been hunting out of the same base camp down there with a bow since 1990.....We have done very well....i think the last count on elk hanging on out meat pole was 37....i have't checked with a couple guys that hunted late season this year...might be higher now.....

Gotta run.....i'll PM ya later....if you are near the Alsea river....we gotta talk my man...i love that area down there.....Kirk

[johnnail]

Van said it best. I can hit a deer target pretty far away, but not a deer. I must be close enough to "read" the animal. Is it aware? Wise to me?(no shot at any yardage) or feeding, looking away, completely engrossed with a hot doe.
At distance, a deer can be slightly quartering toward you, and you can't tell it. A poor percentage shot in my book. The closer the better. I'll gladly take a step back to shoot!(unless we're talkin' Grizzly.....)

[JasonV]

We're probably closer to saying the same thing than it seems Kirk - I wouldn't take a shot at 100yrds, or 80, or even 40 - I might take a shot at 30 in the right circumstances - but I might pass up a shot at 10 in the wrong circumstances.
All I'm saying is that the distance in and of itself can never determine "shoot" or "don't shoot" - or whether a shot was ethical or not.

I also agree that the 'majority' will often try to "vote" on whether a shot was "ethical" or not - but in reality, the details behind the shot are what determine the ethics (by definition, ethics is the set of principals that guide actions, not the actions themselves) so the person taking the shot is really the only one who knows what went into his/her decision, so they are the only one who can judge the ethics accurately.

So taking the right shot at 50 yards could certainly be ethical, when taking the wrong shot at 10 might not be.

As I said, I exaggerated intentionally to make a point - but in reality, there aren't many who can make 40+ yard shots on game effectively enough to make it an appropriate shot - even fewer at 50yrds - and I'd have to see it to believe it at much over 50....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You are right on the money Jason....We are pretty much on the same track after all.....

It takes years and years of diciplined practice to shoot consistantly at long yardage. your equipment needs to be tuned to a razor edge, your arrows balanced and hand crafted like precesion rockets.....and your form has to be perfected......once to get to the point you are constantly blowing nocks, & shooting robinhoods at 40 yards.....you can group at 100, but it isn't easy to do consistantly....... i wouldn't shoot two broadheads at the same spot at 40 yards with my hunting bow..... cutting the vanes off your hunting shafts cuts down your supply big time.....

I have taken Roosevelt elk at 60 & 70 yards before...I had one i shot at 50 yards from a high bank shooting down at about 45 degrees hit perfect, unfortunately he got up and was heading for a flooding river at the time....i freaked out thinking if that bull gets into that river....it's gone!!! i put two more arrows in that elk while he was walking/ staggering away towards trhat raging torent....one at 70 yards and another right next to the first in the spine at 90 yards.....Oh it can be done alright Jason....i've done it.....i spent years learning to shoot long distance with unbielievable accuracy......But something snapped inside my ethics meter or something this last year....I missed two 6 point bulls, that were slam dunk shots for me....i even had the time to put a range finder on one.....i just kinda said to myself. "Kirk, What are you doing man!" this is getting closer to rifle hunting now, and i'm unintentionally incouraging others to try this ....both of those shots i missed were 80 yards.....the bulls just moved out of the way......i came unhinged at the thought of gut shooting, or wounding and loosing such a thing of beauty......it shook me up pretty good...i didn't hunt the rest of the season over it....I sold that rocket launcher in february.....I'm done with that long distance hunting crap...I'm done with the high tech speed bow crap too...I'll save my long distance stuff for 3D or field archery.....it's kinda cool watching those arrows fly.....

Now shooting flu-flu's at geese flying at 40 yards, i'm looking forward too! i'll take my big game up close and personal now...thank you very much.......Kirk

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ttt

[Orion]

That's why long shots are unethical no matter how good a shot one is.  Then animal can and often does move before the arrow gets there.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I was at a local archery club a few weeks ago and noticed a picture of a young man (early teens perhaps), his bow and a nice whitetail buck. In magic marker at the bottom of the photo was written something to the effect of the deer being shot at 50+ yards in a 45 mph cross wind.

I kept my opinions to myself, but if I'd tried something like that my grandfather would have used my bow to start our next campfire.

[Bonebuster]

Because the minimum age was lowered to ten here in Michigan my eleven yr old got to hunt last year for the first time. We crammed alot of great experience into one year. I watched him pass a couple marginal shots. I was too far away to tell him not to shoot. As WE all know, he don`t know nothing yet.

Given the fact that he still "don`t know nothing"
I asked him to think back and tell me how he knew those shots were just too far to take.

"I could just FEEL it" he said.

Simple enough.

[John3]

I'll shoot at a distance that I know I will do it right. Usually under 20 steps or alot closer. Never even consider more than around 30 steps.

John III