Skinny Bowstring Experience

[J-KID]

I've been reading the threads regarding skinny bowstrings for some time and recently decided to give one a try.  My primary bow is a 55# 64" Black Widow PLV TD.  My backup bow is a 50# 64" Black Widow PLV TD.  I shoot the same arrows from both bows, CX Heritage 150's cut to 29" with 150 grain points.  I was thinking a skinny string might improve the performance of the 50# so it would be more comparable to the 55#.

Comparisons: Both bows are less than 6 months old and have have BW strings with Bow Hush silencers installed.  Brace height is set at 7.5" on both bows.  Obviously, the 55# bow shoots faster and the arrows hit harder than the 50# bow.  The 50# bow is quiet and well-mannered in the hand while the 55# bow is louder and can sometimes feel a little harsh on release (hand shock).  Additionally, for some reason i have to use an armguard with the 50# bow due to string slap.  I never use an armguard with the 55# bow.  I often switch back and forth between these bows in a single practice session so these differences are easily perceived.

Skinny Strings:  I ordered two identical 8 strand skinny strings from one of the Trad Gang sponsors, Silent But Deadly Bowstrings.  I originally planned on installing the string on the 50# bow and using the second for a backup.  When they arrived I decided to put one on each bow out of curiosity.  I installed the strings and new Bow Hush silencers in the same locations.  I set the brace height and let them stretch overnight.  The next day I rechecked the brace height and set the nock points.

First Impressions: The bowstrings are top quality and the serving fits my CX nocks well (I specified that I used these nocks when I ordered).  There is plenty of adjustability in the string and they don't look much different than the originals.  They certainly don't look "scary" as some of the posters in threads i had read had commented.

Shooting Impressions: I shot the 50# bow first.  It was still well-mannered, quiet  and appeared to be shooting a little harder.  This was especially noticeable when removing arrows from the target.  The good news is that I noticed I wasn't getting any string slap on my forearm.  I removed the armguard and, sure enough, no problem.  I assume the lighter string recovers faster (doesn't move as far forward on release) and this has eliminated the string slap.  I shot the 55# bow next.  Two improvements were immediately obvious.  First, it was a now as quiet as the 50# bow.  Second, it now was as well-mannered (pleasant in the bow hand) as the 50# bow.  I have shot many arrows from both bows switching back and forth and am very pleased with the improvements.  My quiet, well-mannered 50# bow is shooting arrows faster with no string slap  and my 55# bow is now quiet and well-mannered.  I am very pleased with the outcome and I'll be ordering two more skinny strings from SBD as backups.  I'll also be ordering a 6 strand for my wife's 30# Great Northern long bow.  I get a kick out of that bow too so I'll post results on that later.

[doug77]

Jat, I put a new SBD string on BW PMA III and got the same thing. A much quiter bow and and increase in it's performance. I have to say that I'm very happy with the outcome.

doug77

[Mike Vines]

very thorough.  I too have heard good things, and this just proves it.

[S.C. Hunter]

Jay, I use the SBD string on my Fedora xcellerator it came to me that way, I got the bow from another Trad gang member. I saw the string and my immediate feeling was to remove the string and order another string. I have had some not so good experiences with skinny strings. But like anybody who gets a nice new bow you just have to try it out. Well the first thing I noticed was that my carbons and wood arrows both fit the string well. The next thing I noticed was how quiet and how fast the bow was and no shock. I love this string and will be ordering more.

[Rob DiStefano]

good report, jay - thanx.

with a properly crafted low strand count string, and when compared to a much higher count string of the same fiber type and for for the same bow, most folks are noticing less bow noise on release and a measure of added "stability" as well.  some can either perceive, or technically measure a very slight boost in arrow speed, too.

for me, an 8 strand dyneema endless string has proved to be both quieter and more release "stable" than a string of the same fiber but with 6 more strands - this is for a 55# 2pc longbow.

all in all, it does pay to at least try out a good "skinny" bowstring and judge for yerself.

[Bjorn]

Isn't it wonderful when a product and vendor do their job to achieve customer satisfaction and we don't have to call 'Peggy'!

[Pokerdaddy]

Slightly veering off topic, I've been wondering if SBD strings or another skinny string works on bows that are not FF capable.  I'd be inerested in purchasing some if so.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Pokerdaddy:
Slightly veering off topic, I've been wondering if SBD strings or another skinny string works on bows that are not FF capable.  I'd be inerested in purchasing some if so.

all that matters is the bowstring fiber type.  

if the bow can't handle modern hmpe polyethylene string fibers ("FF") then dacron polyester fiber should be used.  

since dacron has a much lower tensile strength than hmpe (dacron = 50#, hmpe = 100+#), it'd be difficult to use less dacron strands for most stickbows.

my general rule of thumb is 12 times the bow's holding weight ... meaning, for a 50# stickbow, the string needs to have a tensile strength of around 600#.  using dacron @ 50# per strand, that means a 12 strand dacron string.  it would be borderline to go much below 10 strands for that bow.

on the other hand, it would take only 6 strands of most any hmpe string fiber to equal (or better) the 600# tensile strength required for that 50# bow.

see what i mean?

[David McLendon]

If I were going to six strands then I'd use Ultra Cam, it is all that I build with now.I initially tried soem low count D97 on a heavier bow and got too much creep. I have a eight strand UC on a 60#@28 PAX and it is faster and quieter and required an arrow with more spine. I build to the brace height that I need so as to have one half twist per inch to keep string mass low.Too much string length requiring too many twists to brace will not produce optimum results but will be quieter.

[LBR]

Since I'm one of several that has posted concerns about low strand count strings, I feel I should make some clarifications here.  

Both noise and hand shock are (after bow design) primarily a matter of tuning (brace height, silencer placement, nock fit, arrow spine, etc).  A few strands difference in a string (same or very similar material) is not going to magically transform a bow.  

Pretty sure I've never used the term "scary" to describe a lsc string, but they do concern me.  I've had several "rush" orders over the years because a string was accidently cut.  

Chronograph tests have shown that most bows have no noticeable gain in performance by dropping a few strands.  If you have to go up in arrow spine, there is a different reason.  If you gained any noticeable performance, the chonrograph would show it.

It's ironic that J-Kid's tests were done on Black Widow bows, as Ken Beck is one of the folks who I agree with who has done extensive testing (on BW bows) to find no appreciable benefits to lsc strings (on BW bows).


Lsc strings stretch more, at least when comparing apples to apples, requireing the string to be adjustable.  

Lsc strings are much less adjustable.  "Plenty adjustable" is a relative term like "scary".  I don't feel that 1/4" of adjustment is "plenty" for most.  One of the reasons I prefer flemish over endless is because they are (usually) much more adjustable.

Lsc strings are nothing new.  I've made them for 12-15 years, (by request only).  Before accepting an order, I try to be sure folks understand that, like most anything else, there is give and take.  Everything is a trade-off, no exceptions here.  12-15 years ago the fad was 6-8 strand 450+, but it died out for the most part in a short time.

I didn't care for lsc strings back then for the same reasons I don't care for them now... but I do suggest that anyone who's curious try one for themselves rather than take my (or anyone else's) opinion as gospel.

For the record, what I refer to as a lsc (low strand count) string is a string with less than 10 strands, except on very low draw weights.

Just my opinion--take it for what it's worth.  It's based on around 20 years of making strings and talking to some of the best hunters and shooters in the U.S., but your results may vary.

[David McLendon]

Chad the above mentioned PAX is 14-15fps faster through the chrono by mechanical release with the same arrow and an 8 strand Ultra Cam as opposed to a 14 strand D97 at the same brace height and thus it shoots a little weaker with the U.C. Also when drawn to the same exact 28" the bow scale shows that the 8 strand is drawing 62# while the D97 drawn to 28# is drawing 60# because it is stretching due to more twists having an accordian effect. So the difference between the two and the difference in speed and spine is a result of the Ultra Cam string being made to the exact length at which the bow functions best and the D97 is a standard 60" AMO with a lot more twists in it. You could design a string to fit a particular with respect to length out of D97 and get a similar but smaller change than the LSC UC. There is no magic bullet for LSC strings because you cannot make a standard AMO length string to go on any bow and reap the benefits of matching a string to a particular bow. That is why there is no marketability for them for a company like Black Widow, it would be impractical for them for retail sales so therefore the word is that they just don't work.

[LBR]

String construction is a big factor--loosing 2# of draw weight because the string has so many twists tells a lot.  One, you are loosing 2# of pull, so it's not an even test.  2# heavier is going to shoot 2# faster.  Two, it tells me the string isn't properly made--it's not an apples to apples test.  Although uncommon in my experience, string material can also be a factor.  For some reason, some bows "like" one material over another, and do better with it.

I've posted over and over about not trying to make strings to AMO specs, but rather make them to fit the bow.  Going by AMO is a shot in the dark, because many bows don't follow AMO guidelines.

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't see where it applies here.  An apples to apples test would be two Dynaflight '97 strings made to fit the bow, or two UC strings made to fit the bow, or two 8125 strings, etc.;  one with 12 strands and one with 8 strands.  Then you would get an honest comparison.

I can build a dacron string that's "faster" than a UC string, but it wouldn't be an honest comparison.

[Mike Vines]

I almost jumped on the band wagon and ordered a couple skinny strings, but then I remembered that I switched from a compound to a longbow for a reason.   That reason is that I wanted to get back to the basics, and use the tried and true.  If I wanted more speed, I would hit the gym more often, and get a heavier pounded bow.  So for now, and for the forseeable future for that matter, I'm gonna stick to my 57# RER longbow (LXR) and stick with stock strings.

Wow, I almost had a relaps. LOL

[David McLendon]

Chad the 60"AMO string was a Black Widow D97, the same string that according to the maker was equal in performance to any LSC. The LSC Ultra Cam that I make is made to fit my bow. I also made an eight strand D97 the same length and twist to brace as my Ultra Cam. It would never settle and crept regularly and when drawn to 28" only pulled 58.5# due to stretch and that is apples to apples. The LSC D97 was too unstable to suit me plus a 3.0-3.5# disadvantage at the same draw length as the Ultra Cam. It works because I had to prove it to myself, but from a mass production stand point it is not possible to realize those numbers wit strings going out to so many different bows and set ups.
 I wasn't necessarily after a faster arrow because deer are jumping the string on 300fps compounds so 10-20 fps diff erence is really negligible. What I wanted and what I got was a much quieter bow  shooting a heavier arrow at around the same speed and trajectory as before for more momentum and penetration. Not for everybody but worth it to me.

[L82HUNT]

David if you are getting that many more FPS take it to Widow. Ken Beck wrote this on the Widow Wall.


TESTING STRINGS
In response to a lot of interest in various string materials and “skinny” strings, we have performance tested several materials in both conventional and “skinny” versions to compare to our standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97. Ray Caliendo (our milling machine guru and longtime string maker and expert) made the strings used for testing. The “skinny” strings had about half the strands but were padded in the loops to protect from what I call the “piano wire effect” that can split the limb tips. The center servings were also padded to get the desired arrow nock fit. For our purposes here, no silencers when installed.

Here is our testing protocol: For the recurve test, we selected a 60" PSA X. We chose to do the tests at a 30" draw (rather than 28") to maximize any benefit gained. The bow was braced at 8 1/ 4" and weighed on our electronic digital scale (0.1 increments) and it weighed in at 57.5#. Then we built an arrow that weighed exactly 517.5 grains (9 x 57.5#). (A higher brace would give a slightly higher draw weight and thus require a heavier arrow.) The shooting was done with our shooting machine. For each test, the bow was drawn with the winch to exactly 30" and the mechanical release was then activated. Each test requires only two or three shots through the chronograph. The readout will never vary more than one foot per second. If the first and second shots read the same (which is usually the case), we record this fps number. If not, we shoot a third arrow and record the two-out-of-three number. Since our chronograph does not measure in tenths of fps, our method is only accurate to within plus or minus 1/ 2 fps. A different chronograph might read faster or slower, but our testing protocol would produce the same consistency.

PSA X 60" RECURVE 57.5# @ 30" 517.5 grain arrow

DynaFLIGHT 97 14 strand 196 fps

Ultra Cam 16 strand 195 fps

Ultra Cam 8 strand 195 fps

Excellerent 12 strand 195 fps

Excellerent 8 strand 195 fps

Astro Flight 20 strand 195 fps

Astro Flight 10 strand 195 fps

Trophy 20 strand 196 fps

Trophy 12 strand 196 fps

D 10 18 strand 197 fps

D 10 12 strand 196 fps

We then tested a 60" (so we could use the same strings) PL X longbow of exactly the same draw weight at 30" with basically the same results, only 2 to 3 fps slower than the recurve. A 64" longbow would have been more suitable for a 30" draw and would have reduced the difference between the longbow and the recurve. We also compared speeds with and without the typical four Spider string silencers with a difference of 2-3 fps (2 fps on the DF 97}.

As you can see, it’s a washout. I was not surprised because I had tested an endless “skinny” string some time ago with the same result. Even though these 60" “skinny” strings (with padded loops and center serving) weigh 20 to 30 grains less (depending on which strand material), fewer strands allow more stretch or elasticity and we thus loose what we hoped to gain. The conventional D 10 string was 1 fps faster for both the recurve and longbow.

Well, there may be those who question these numbers and feel that the “Old Man” has gone over-the-hill and senility has set in. I would simply suggest “Grumpy” old man. So here’s the deal: Since I’m “from Missouri”, bring your Black Widow bow to Missouri with your properly padded “skinny” string and “show me”. Using the scientific testing method described above (you may determine the brace height), if you can achieve an additional 3 fps over a standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97 string, we will build you a new Black Widow bow of your choice. BUT.... if you can not achieve an additional 3 fps, you must leave your Black Widow bow with us, OR.... pay for a new Black Widow bow that we will build for you. SUCH A DEAL! If there is a better mouse trap, we want to know about it! (This offer will expire 12-31-2010.)

I have also resurrected a post from the past entitled "TESTING & COMPARING BOW PERFORMANCE” for you to review.

Let me summerize: PHYSICS is PHYSICS is PHYSICS.... and you can’t get around it.

Ken Beck

[J-KID]

Mike,
If you use a one of those new fangled FastFlight strings you've already jumped on the band wagon.  I'd recommend you give skinny strings (they are not really that skinny by the way) a try and see if it doesn't give you an even better shooting bow.  If it does you win.  If it doesn't your out a few bucks but now you know.

An open mind is a beautiful thing!

Let me reiterate, both bows were tuned with original stings.  I replicated the brace, nock and silencer locations exactly.  (I am now doing some tweaking to make sure they are shooting optimally with the new strings.)  My results were 1) no more string slap with the lighter bow, 2) the heavier bow is now  sweet in the bow hand, and 3) the heavy bow is now as quiet as the lighter bow.  I shoot both bows every day and going back and forth every three arrows between the bows makes these improvements obvious.

I don't have a chronograph so I can't say if the bows are shooting harder, however, when I pull the arrows from the lighter bow it appears they are (and I've pulled a lot of arrows from that bow with the original string).

I'm very pleased with the results (regardless of any speed changes) and absolutely will not return to the original strings.  The skinny strings have kicked my enjoyment up a couple notches.

[David McLendon]

I saw all that and talked to Ken, I thought I was going to be able to detour by there back in April but schedule changes and a ratty economy required me to be here instead. I don't need anymore Black Widows, I have three for sale in the classifieds now if anybody needs a lefthanded bow.
 The whole thing that was danced around there was that these strings need to be made for a specific bow which means that a lot of string making and testing of set ups goes into finding out what length is needed. You're kind of shooting at a moving target because a change in one area results several other changes. Finding the ideal brace height is key and building your string for that bow with minimal twist. I build mine with one half twist per inch max. If you look at a 60"AMO Black Widow string on my bow it has considerably more twist which means there is excessive string length and weight, so it doesn't matter what you build a string out of or how many strands it has if it is longer than necessary then it is heavier and more likely to have the slinky effect on release, which causes their string to draw and hold less weight than mine, and no improvement will be seen which may serve to justify some peoples points and position.

[J-KID]

That makes sense.  SBD Strings requires two measurements.  Bow length and actual string length on a braced bow.  I guess there is less room for error.

[LBR]

Like I said, lsc strings are nothing new.  For real test results, you need calibrated shooting equipment--chrony, Hooter-Shooter, and for sound, a decimenter.

I don't begrudge anyone for talking about their favorites or their preferances.  Just call it what it is--opinions.  "Looks like", "sounds like", "seems like", etc. are opinions, not verifiable results.

I've gathered data on them for years, from people who do use chronographs, Hooter-Shooters, etc.  Test equipment doesn't have opinions.

I can say that I've never encountered the amount of stretch/creep noted with Dynaflight '97.  I don't go less than 10 strands on personal bows, and they are pulling [email protected].  It takes a LOT of twists to get an "accordion" effect, and it takes a lot to affect performance to any degree.  Lots of other variables come into play--again, calibrated machines have to be used for a test, otherwise it's just an opinion.

If twists caused that much of a difference, then we'd see a huge, or at least noticeable, difference in performance between endless and flemish.  It's simply not there.

I'm glad Ken's offer was brought up.  Even if you don't "need" another bow (that's a new one on me!), that's a pretty hefty bounty being offered up--not to mention bragging rights for the world to see.  To my knowledge, nobody has taken him up on it yet.

[J-KID]

I just finished yet another 2-hour shooting session alternating between bows.  WOW!  All the bad qualities of the two bows are gone.  No string slap, sweet in the hand, and the noise from both bows are the same.  (One of my daughters could always tell which bow I'd shot due to the noise difference.  Not anymore!)

As for speed...  My accuracy has not been as good as with the original strings so I took my bare shaft, which I shoot regularly right into my group, and gave it a shot.  Then another - and another.  You guessed it, it is shooting very weak.  I did some tinkering with point weights and I think I'll have to move up to a CX 250 which is fine because I'm as short as I can go with the 150s and I could use a little more arrow weight.

i just fell in love with both bows all over again.
I'm one happy camper!