Skinny Bowstring Experience

[Pierre Lucas]

For some it do and some it don't...>>>----->  
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[MAT]

You said you thought the sound went down, are you certian it wasn't from a change in tone?  I found the skinny strings were higher pitch than the standard.  This is basic physics, the same principle as a guitar or piano string.  To me the higher pitch would gbe a negative for hunting.  

I also found a very small increase in speed, not enough to offset the negatives.  I used 452x but can't imagine it would be any different than D97.  But I plan to try that too.

[LBR]

Well, as an "academic and a psychologist" I'm sure you very well know the effect word choice has on people.  

When you put out comments like:

"They certainly don't look "scary" as some of the posters in threads i had read had commented."

on down to

"I didn't expect anyone would be changing the subject so they could bring dogs to the fight.",

I'm sure you knew exactly what you were doing.  Guess I'm the fool for falling for it.  Oh well...

Either way, the facts still stand as facts.

The facts are:

*There are trade-offs, especially when making extreme changes

*Perception may mean more than reality to some folks

*There is no magic equipment, including strings

*Tuning and practice are imperitive

*There are no long-term shortcuts

*Proper test equipment doesn't show bias or opinions or perceptions

*lsc strings are nothing new

*If there is a real benefit to ANY equipment, the top shooters will be using it

I'm sure I missed several, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

As several of us keep stating, when it's this cheap and easy to do, just give it a try and see what you think..   I never suspected a simple request of keeping it factual and honest would raise any hackles.  

If you can make a string, you can make a lsc string, or a regular string, or whatever--it's not exactly rocket science.  If you can't, just buy one.

I'm just a string nut and it bugs me when opinions or any other misleading statements are given as fact.  This stuff can be hard enough without all that.  I don't think my request to keep it honest is at all unreasonable.

Chad

[LBR]

Excellent comment MAT.  THAT is why I rather rely on facts instead of perception.

[mooseman76]

I have a serious question here.  If you drop your strand count then the string weighs less, correct?  About how much say for a 14 strand ultracam string to an 8 strand ultracam string?  If there is a big weight difference do you then have to increase your arrow weight if you want to stay above a certain gpp (especially when the bow's warranty states this)?  ex...if you are shooting the minimum for your bow (say 8gpp) then you drop the strand count does this have the same effect as dropping the arrow weight?

Not saying I intend to do this or that I shoot anywhere near the min gpp (I like 11-12 gpp).  I just have an inquiring mind and it is really crappy outside today...Mike

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by mooseman76:
I have a serious question here.  If you drop your strand count then the string weighs less, correct?  

obviously

About how much say for a 14 strand ultracam string to an 8 strand ultracam string?  

dunno, don't care

If there is a big weight difference do you then have to increase your arrow weight if you want to stay above a certain gpp (especially when the bow's warranty states this)?  ex...if you are shooting the minimum for your bow (say 8gpp) then you drop the strand count does this have the same effect as dropping the arrow weight?

yer micro managing this whole thing - the weight savings 'tween a 14 strand and 8 strand dyneema string ain't all that a big deal and IMO not a reason to drop string strand count.  if a mega, and i mean MEGA, increase in arra speed equates to 5 fps, what does that mean for trad bowhunter who typically downs game at 5 to 20 yards?  ... nothing worth mentioning.  
...

[David McLendon]

Yes, whether or not it is worth mentioning is up to you. It can be a big enough difference for your arrow, particularly if it is at minimum to shoot weak, requiring an adjustment in tuning. Once again, for me the goal was a quieter bow without excessive silencing measures. I was shooting a Black Widow PAX which is far from being the quietest bow made. I have not recently fallen from a turnip wagon and am fully aware of all aspects of tuning, brace and arrow adjustment although I'm not so much of an internet gheek. What I got was a much quieter bow shooting a slightly heavier arrow at about the same speed and trajectory, all pluses in my book. Some of you guys act like if you don't know it then it is not worth knowing, but that is easy on a keyboard. Good luck and have at it.

[LBR]

The weight difference is minimal. A strand of Dynaflight '97 (waxed) that is 80" long weighs 6 grains (for comparison, a brass nockset weighs 4 grains).  80" is more than long enough to make a 63" string (for a 66" bow).  

Now, remove the excess to allow for what's in the loops (which has no bearing on performance) and you have 4 grains for a 60" strand.  

The weight difference between a 14 strand Dynaflight '97 and an 8 strand Dynaflight '97 (I don't have UC) is 36 actual grains (the same as a .22 long rifle hollow point, or a single 6" strip of "cat whisker" silencer), but the working difference (moving part of the string) is 24 grains.  

That 24 grains is distributed throughout the length of the string, so it's going to have basically the same effect as a couple of extra nock points, or a small set of cat whisker silencers.

Short answer, there's no need to worry about shooting a heavier arrow if you go to a lsc string.

[LBR]

Rob beat me to it (I was practicing what I preached, by weighing stuff out before posting).

Basically, what he said.

[mooseman76]

Didn't mean to micro manage.  I really didn't know what the weight difference was between the two strings.  I thought if it was a huge difference then it could be detrimental to the bow if someone were shooting a light arrow to begin with.  

The only thing and I mean the ONLY thing that interests me at all in skinny strings is noise reduction.  I haven't jumped on board yet, but have a string on order from SBD to see for myself.  My Toelke longbow is whisper quiet with the stock string so not sure if the lower strands will make much difference but they may on some of the other bows that are a tad noisier (and really any noise reduction is a plus in my book.  I know I'd use different silencers if they made a difference so why not a different string).  Thank you for the clarifications...Mike

[Jeff Strubberg]

Originally posted by MAT:
You said you thought the sound went down, are you certian it wasn't from a change in tone?  I found the skinny strings were higher pitch than the standard.  This is basic physics, the same principle as a guitar or piano string.  To me the higher pitch would gbe a negative for hunting.  

I also found a very small increase in speed, not enough to offset the negatives.  I used 452x but can't imagine it would be any different than D97.  But I plan to try that too.

I'm sure different bows resonate more or less, but on my hybrid the sound level is absolutely down, and no, the pitch isn't any higher.  For pitch to be higher you would have to apply more stress to the string.  You don't get a higher pitch on a guitar by using a smaller string..you get a higher pitch by both using a smaller string and then stretching it tighter than a larger string.  Just going to a smaller string doesn't change much.

I don't have an answer as to why a smaller string makes such a difference in sound, but it's very easy to demonstrate.  I've even asked friends to stand jsut outside my concrete shooting range and tell me which shot is quieter while I switch between strings.  There's no doubt at all that on my hybrid, the eight strand D97 is quieter than the 14 strand that was on the bow when I got it.

[LBR]

For pitch to be higher you would have to apply more stress to the string.

By reducing strands you are applying more stress.  

To keep it simple, say you are pulling 100# on a 20 strand string.  That comes out to each strand having 5# of stress applied.

Drop the strand count to 10 strands--you just doubled the stress on each strand without increasing the draw weight.

[Steelhead]

I dont use a skinnier string for speed.I shoot mostly 8 strand,sometimes 6 and 10 strands and they have made a noticable improvement in the area of noise when a bows shot and also I feel the bow shoots nicer,sweeter and softer in the hand.

Thats my personell experience testing many different strings of different strand counts and also different string materials on many differnt bows over the last few years.

Thier is no doubt in my mind.

[Jeff Strubberg]

And put a smaller string on a guitar, then torque it to the same spec as a larger string.  The pitch won't change.

You have to wind that smaller string up tighter than the larger string, not just more stress per amount of material.

I'm not doing a very good job of explaining the phenomena, but if you sit down with a guitar and start playing with the A and B strings, you'll see it pretty quickly.  You have to apply a lot more torque to the B string to get the higher pitch.  Just having a smaller string doesn't do the trick.

[J-KID]

I just posted a Poll on PowWow.

I'm curious as to how many people have even tried a Skinny String and how many have had positive experiences with them.  Sometimes people will vote on a poll but won't chime in on a thread.

[LBR]

David, the question was about mass weight, not arrow spine.  Dropping a few strands from the string doesn't mean you need to shoot a heavier (mass weight) arrow to keep from damaging your bow or voiding your warranty (unless the bowyer specifies otherwise).

[Rob DiStefano]

not that ANY of the following matters other than for curiosity's sake ...

a guitar that's concert tuned to A-440 pitch using .011 to .048 gauge strings will have the high .011 "E" string at about 19.6# tensile strength and the low .048 "E" string at about 21.3# tensile strength and 2 octaves lower in pitch.

if you increase the tension on the high "E" string 1.7#, to the same tensile strength as the low "E" string, the note produced by the smaller string is higher in pitch (the note goes from "E" to perhaps "F#" or "G").

i think that best simulates what happens with a "skinny" bowstring - the skinny string tension remains the same as with a "fat" string, assuming the limbs are the same and the same brace height is achieved, and that will create a higher note on that skinny string.  

so why does the skinny string sound quieter than the fatter string?  

my thinking is that the deeper resonant tone, with more pronounced volume, of the fat bowstring is, like with stringed instruments, is easier to perceive, easier for the human ear and body to pickup.    

the skinny string will have a higher pitch, but with lower volume and so harder to hear and/or perceive.  this is the exact same for stringed instruments.  ask me how i know this.    

[J-KID]

Rob,
This would mean that a bow that sounds more quiet to a human may actually be more perceivable to an animal!  Interesting...

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by J-KID:
Rob,
This would mean that a bow that sounds more quiet to a human may actually be more perceivable to an animal!  Interesting...

that could very very well be true ....

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Steelhead:
I dont use a skinnier string for speed.I shoot mostly 8 strand,sometimes 6 and 10 strands and they have made a noticable improvement in the area of noise when a bows shot and also I feel the bow shoots nicer,sweeter and softer in the hand.

Thats my personell experience testing many different strings of different strand counts and also different string materials on many differnt bows over the last few years.

Thier is no doubt in my mind.

That is also my experience across the board on all bows.  I find the pitch of the sound to go lower not higher.  That is unless there are two sounds; one I can hear as lower and one I can’t hear at all because it is too high.  I seriously doubt it, but it is possible I guess.  I shoot with others who can also hear my bow, and I can hear it shot by them.  I also shoot in my metal barn and outside along the wall so I can hear not only the sound behind the bow, but from the sound bounced back to me from the side and even above the bow.  
I get substantial reduction in sound with an 8 vs. 14 or more strand string.   So much so that I only shoot half of less strings silencer material.  On some bows I have gone from two sets of cat whiskers to one set using two half strips on the string and still have significantly less noise.  That is a 75% reduction in silencer material with what sounds like at least a 50% reduction in sound volume.
I recently did a test drive on a black widow pch.  I used the standard string and installed my own bow hush and hush puppies.  I tried all kinds of other silencers.  I couldn’t get that bow as quiet as I would need to want to shoot one.  The sound was a higher pitched twang.  I couldn’t get a custom SBD string in time to test the bow before it had to go back.  Recently I purchased a used pch with a skinny string of some kind.  I don’t even know what it is, but looks to be maybe D-97 8 strand.   With that string I have the bow shooting almost as quiet as one of my long bows.   It has a very dull thump now.  It is hard to believe there is that much difference.  I would not own a BW if I had to shoot a factory string on it.