.92 arrow (My results)

[Friends call me Pac]

Thanks to Mike over at Mad dog I decided to build some arrows per his how to build a .92 arrow follow along.

Here are the basic materials and stats
5/16 dowel cut to 28"
125 gr field tip
3 gateway feathers
Knock

Total weight for each of the 3 arrows varied from 506-520 gr on my powder scale.

I'm pulling around 47 @ 27".

Stu's numbers for arrow imput were 49.8 & Bow imput numbers were 49.9

Stu's total weight shows 454 gr and 9.5 gpi  Somewhat of a difference from my powder scale and my own math for figuring gpi but between 9.5 & 11 gpi they should still be safe with my bow.

I shot the 3 arrows several times just to see how they flew.   My normal shooting results in me kind of seeing the arrow as it flies but my main focus is on the target.  I don't really see the arrow very well as it flies.  Since I was originally more concerned with how they looked in flight I didn't really concentrate on accuracy.  I was kind of keeping my head up a bit so I could see the arrow in flight better.

After a few shots I was happy with the way they flew so I backed up to 20 yards and tried for accuracy.  I did throw one out but it sure isn't out by much and could have easily been shooter error.  Knowing me it probably was shooter error.

What do I think of the .92 arrow?    

Thank you Mike!

 

[Dave Bowers]

Not too shabby  

[Stumpkiller]

I'm lost on some of the terminology.  Not sure why an arrow needs be concerned with a General Purpose Interface (GPI) . . . I suppose that is a field point??  Could be the nock though??

<<< Stu's numbers for arrow imput were 49.8 & Bow imput numbers were 49.9  >>>

Is that the spine?  Pretty good if you get it down into decimals.  Mine run +/- five pounds, anyway.  

I ain't never killed a deer or a bunny with a calculator.  If they hit the bale where you're aiming and drive a blunt through a bunny or a broadhead through a deer I think they're just fine.  ;-)

[Friends call me Pac]

(GPI) Grains per inch.

I used Stu Millers calculator as a reference to see how my arrows would look on paper.  Learning how to make a wooden arrow that is safe to shoot is very important to me since I have just started building wooden arrows and don't really know what to exspect.  Stu's calculator eased my mind before I took the 1st shot.

[Paul Mattson]

What was the spine of the dowels?  What is the .92?  I'm somewhat lost.

[KellyG]

That is some nice shootn tex.

[Rob DiStefano]

i bought a hundred count of the woodcrafter 5/16" birch dowels as well.  quite surprised that the dowels are of exceptional quality of grain and smooth finish.  a bear's paw taper tool shaves perfect ultra thin ribbons of wood.  i nock tapered 2 dozen, then cut to length (29-3/4" for a finished 29" arrow) and weighed each raw shaft.  the weight range is from the low 300's to the high 400's.  i separated 6 that were within a few grains of 350, drilled out the point end with the braveheart/3rivers nail footing jig, inserted 62 grain nails with epoxy, hot glued on 70 grain 5/16" filed points for an average shaft weight of 485 grains sans fletching.  next up is the clear wiped on polyu finish, straighten 'em, find the stiff side, fletch up with gray goose feathers.
 
   

[Mudd]

I am totally impressed Pac!!

You done good!

Anybody that has what it takes to make an arrow that will fly has my utmost respect.

Thanks for sharing.

God bless,Mudd

PS: Come on guys go back and read Maddogs' thread, it's a 92 cent arrow...lol

[Stumpkiller]

I backtracked the Stu Miller actuary table.  It's a way to determine spine statistically rather than by measurement.  

I find it easier to drive two finishing nails 26" apart and hang a 2# bag of lead shot and eyeball a ruler fastened behind.

  http://www.tradgang.com/amo/amo.pdf  

If you are using hardware store dowels I'd be more concerned with runout and material (ramin, birch or poplar?)  Those each have differing spine characteristics that diameter alone can't tell and there is no selection process so any are anything like their neighbors on the rack.  Back 15 years ago when cedar was hard come by I tried ramin doweling and one blew up on the bow's shelf when released.  I'd be real choosy when culling for grain at the store.

[Friends call me Pac]

"What is the .92?"

Mike from madog archery made a how to on how to make a inexspensive target arrow.  It can be seen here:

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000116

The spine checkers I have found for sale are very exspensive to me.  I'll have to do some searches on the 2 nails, ruler and weight system so I can understand the process better.  Right now I'm a complete newby at wooden arrows.  

Stumpkiller you know how to work the nail, ruler & weight deal.  Any chance of explaining it to me through a pm if I can't find anything about it with a search?

[Rob DiStefano]

charlie 'stumpkiller' nailed it (pun intended) - use two nails at 26" centers and a 2# hanging weight.  you don't need any commercial charts, just an arrow of known spine, hang it, mark it on the jig/wall, spine the dowels/shafts/whatever and see where they fall relative to the mark.  

that is, bang in a pair of nails to a wall with 26" between the nails (horizontal to the ground/floor), draw a line between the nails (horizontal) that's about 11/32" above each nail, lay the raw shaft on nails that're 26" apart, hang a 2# weight on the shaft and between the 26" nails, note the space between the line on the wall and the top of the shaft - that's the spine deflection.  a fifty pound spine shaft might spine at around .40" to .50" deflection.

all bets are off unless you ....

* straighten the shaft before checking the spine!  important!

* make sure to rotate the shaft during the spine process as the end grain sides of a shaft will be typically stiffer and you will see a difference in the spine deflection!

* mark the stiff side and use it against the arrow plate - meaning, the side of the shaft that's opposite the stiff side is where the cock feather goes.

[Thumper Dunker]

Im with Stumpkiller you need to be real choosy about run off if using dowels.I been using oak dowels .Good stuff thanks for posting

[Stumpkiller]

Two nails, 26" apart.  I have a nylon bag (draw string) that contains 2# of lead shot.  The shaft is placed between the nails and aligned as if the nails were the riser (that is, grain of the shaft perpendicular to the nails).  Then the ruler is adjusted so the "0" (origin) mark is even with the shaft.  The weight is placed in the middle if the shaft (a hook on the drawstring) and the amount of deflection is read on the ruler.  The AMO book has a table of what the deflection amount corresponds to in spine weight.

  http://www.tradgang.com/amo/amo.pdf  

So, lets say your shaft deflects 0.58" - the scale on p.6 says that is an "F" rating.  Going to the Hunting Arrow table on p.7 and looking at your draw length of 27" that tells you it should be good for a bow with an AMO rating of 45-50# pull.

(Note that wood "Target Arrows" have much lighter slip-on heads so use the Field & Hunting Arrow chart).

The "real" spine machines have a lever arm to make reading the deflection much easier.  I use a pin and a pencil mark so my eye is always in the same place when I take the "0" reading.  1/16" is 0.0625", so eyeballing it easily keeps within that range . . . possibly a bit better if you use a fancy steel Starrett ruler.  You'll note the table is not evenly proportional - the higher readings are closer together.

Now what you want to do is sort a bunch of shafts by the spine rating.  Then, weigh each of those groups into sub-groups of +/- 15 grains.  That's what you pay for when you buy pre-sorted or "select" spined and weighed shafts.

Remember: this is stone-age technology.  Don't over think it.  Some of the best archers the world has ever seen used bits of tree, rock and animal pieces to fashion their weapons.  They relied on skill and technique instead of technology

[Friends call me Pac]

Thanks for the help with how to make and use a 2 nail spine tester.  Going out to the shed to see what I can come up with.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I also tried some el cheapo wooden dowls from Wally world believe it or not. I was just curious to see what kind of arrow I could make out of them and how bad it would really turn out.
The dowels were .57 cents a piece for 5/16 dowel rod. I think they were actually pine and not even hard wood?
I layed the entire box full on the floor and gave them the roll test to pick the straightest ones out, then looked for defects. I finally narrowed it down to the best 3 shafts out of the whole box and took them home.

Anyway, the spine was right around .700 best I could tell on my home made spine tester, which is what I've been making my cedar shafts with when I build arrows and they fly great from my Grizzly recurve.
I built the dowels into finished arrows just like I do my cedars and they came out to around 520gr. with 125gr. point, 3 fletch with natural wild turkey feathers.
To my amazement they actually flew great!
Now I know the durability of a non-hardwood dowel isn't the greatest, but once it goes through a deer's chest, who cares if it breaks once the damage has been done? After all it only cost .57 cents and a few feathers, plus a broadhead to make.

My point is, that a guy could get by with el cheapo dowels if need be, and probably kill plenty of game with them. Cedar is definitely better, but el cheapo pine dowels would get the job done, no doubt in my mind they would.
At the very least they would make awesome and cheap small game or stump shooting arrows and leave the nice cedar ones at home for hunting bigger game.

[Friends call me Pac]

Ok I rigged up a spine tester using the 2 nails @ 26" apart and the 2lb weight.  My arrow was one of the 28" ones I posted a picture of in the original part of this thread.

What I came up with is a deflection of .43 using my calipers.

Looking at the booklet that makes it = 55-60 for a 28" long target arrow.

That look right to you guys?  Am I warm?

[Stumpkiller]

I'm impressed you're getting that spine with a 5/16" dowel!  I have heard birch is a good choice as an arrow shaft.  That should be right about where you need be with a 47#@27" set-up.  Things like center-shot riser, shelf choice, release technique, mother's maiden name, etc. can effect which exact spine is optimal for any given archer.

Charge on!

I have a 30" draw and, unfortunately, dowel sizing jumps from 5/16" to 3/8" or I'd be right along experimenting with you.  That's a hell of a deal.

Maybe someone in the U.S. imports a 9mm dowel?  (I see they are available in Europe).

[Friends call me Pac]

Went back and double checked where I'm suppose to measure.  Sure enough I did it wrong the 1st time.  What I actually have is a 28" arrow with a deflection of .62"  

Looking at the target chart it looks like I have it in the 40-45 range & in the hunting chart I show it's good for 35-40 pounds.  I'm pulling 47 pounds but looks like it would be way underspined for a hunting arrow.

Learned something new today.  Thank you very much.

[SCATTERSHOT]

FWIW, 26 divided by the deflection (.62) will give you the spine of that shaft for a 28" arrow.

26 divided by .62 = 41.9 # spine

Stumpkiller, 5/16" dowels will spine in the mid 40s, as a general rule. You can use 3/8" dowels (usually in the 80s)and either sand the middle of the shaft or leave them long. I once bareshafted a 108# shaft from a 50# bow, just to see if I could do it.

[Mike Mecredy]

You can make them for even less if you use feathers from a road kill, self nocks, and spent .32 cases for points.