FF or B-50 Which is best for a Hill bow ?

[BamaBarebow]

"hard hitting" and "light hitting"-

This requires 3 things: potential energy, kinectic energy, and momentum.

Potential energy: PE=mhg (mass*height*gravity) Potential energy is the POTENTIAL that something has to create kinectic energy or do work(work is a whole different aspect)This is measured in Newtons.

Kinectic Energy: KE=1/2vm2 (one half velocity* mass to the second power or squared) This is the energy of the arrow as it FLIES THROUGH THE AIR, not when it hits the target.

Momentum: p=mv (mass* velocity) Now this is the mass (arrow) pushing through the object.

Momentum and Kinectic Energy are often confused BUT its all about momentum.. There is a happy medium where a slow heavy arrow will have the same momentum as a fast light arrow (the decrease in mass is aided by an increase in velocity in the light arrow and for the heavy arrow the decrease in velocity is aided by the increase in mass) So with that if you can take a bow and make it shoot the same arrow faster then you will penetrate further due to more momentum..

Now to some bowhunters (including myself) its all about having the quietest bow. Which makes a great difference.

But to answer your question I have no idea about to life of a Hill bow due to FF.. I shoot a B-50 flemish twist just because its what came on the bow and it works how I want it to.

[LBR]

That "myth" comes from Craig Eakin himself, who builds the bows and should know.

I've never talked to Mr. Eakin about strings, but if I did the first question I'd ask is "how did you come to this conclusion?"

I say this due to the warranties I've read from two well known bowyers.  One bowyer voids his warranty if you use a flemish string or a string made from dacron.  That's not a typo--the warranty is void if you use a dacron string!  I tried to find contact information for this one, with no luck.  

Another states in their warranty that "flemish strings are less accurate, and can be dangerous...".  I did e-mail this bowyer, and asked what he based that on.  No reply.

That being said, the bowyer is the one who makes the warranty so if you want him to honor it, you have to follow their stipulations.

Mr. Eakin may have a reason for stating that FF type materials will shorten the life of his bows.  If he does, I wish someone would post it.  I've talked to lots of bowyers, and I've yet to be shown evidence of HMPE materials damaging a properly made bow.  All three of my selfbows do just fine with Dynaflight '97 or Formula 8125.

Chad

[Ben Maher]

Chad , I'm pretty sure that Craig uses low stretch material himself on his bows and I know that he sells them . Perhaps he is just covering himself with the older school thinking re Fast Flight etc .

I don't think there is any warranty issues with high performance strings with the Ekins . Pretty sure that the bow is covered regardless of string choice [aside from extreme's...]

[GingivitisKahn]

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd get off my backside and call him to ask about the FF / warranty debate. If I think about it tonight (and if someone hasn't beat me to it) I'll do that.

I like my B-50 on mine - it looks cool - but options are nice.

[Hatrick]

Get one of each. Then after shooting each string on a practice round all you'll have to do is find someone to give the B-50 string to.

[Ralphie]

From all that has been said, I am thinking that FF material can be used, but using it will take a toll.
A similar circumstance would be to work a car engine hard. The life of the engine will not last as long as one that is not wound out. FF might "wind out" a Hill, tire it out, shorten it's life.
quien sabe ? (who knows ).
I think when the bow gets here I am going to use the B-50 string that the previous owner used.
Although I would like to try the Silent But Deadly (SBD), Ultra FF, string.
What an overwhelming hobby archery is !
r

[LBR]

As long as the tips are made properly, I can't see where a HMPE string is "hard" on a bow.  Here's why:

HMPE strings reduce hand shock in practically all bows--some, like a straight or mild reflex limb, get the shock reduced a LOT.

Shock comes from wasted energy resonating down the limbs to the grip.  Seems to me that all that extra vibration would cause more harm than less vibration?  I'm not a bowyer though, that's just a thought.

[Elk whisperer]

just use a heavy arrow

[Fischman]

Hey its your choice! B-50 quieter and softer shot, last forever- or FF type strings and gain a few fps and always wonder if ??

[Greg Skinner]

I'm with Hatrick on this one.  After trying DF97 a number of years ago, I've never used B-50 on anything since.  In fact if the bow required B-50 I wouldn't get it.  I use DF97 on all my Hill bows and also on a '92 vintage Pacific Yew that was built without  additional limb tip overlays. I asked Jay about using DF97 and he said to go ahead. However, I decided to add horn overlays to it, partly for looks, but also for the additional strength on the tips. I've put alot of arrows through both my Hill Tembo and the St. Charles (they are my favorite bows) and I love the way they shoot with 8 strand DF97 strings.  I've yet to see a down-side with my setup.  I originally tried the DF97 because of its toughness and resistance to abrasion - not for additional speed.  B-50 always frayed too much at the nock loops for my liking.

[LBR]

HMPE materials (Dynaflight, Formula 8125, 450+, etc.) may be a tad faster (lots of variables to consider), but that's NOT why I use it.

I prefer HMPE materials because they have a lot less stretch, a lot less creep, and are much more durable (in moderate size strings--I don't use less than 10 strands).  I have no problem getting them very quiet (a little tuning goes a long way), and they make some bows shootable for me that otherwise would sit on a rack if I owned them at all by reducing the hand shock.

I don't know of anyone that uses them just to pick up a couple fps.  Personally, I'd use them if they were a little slower than dacron--they offer many more benefits than speed.

I've yet to see a bow that was properly made be damaged by a HMPE string.  I've seen several bows fail with dacron strings on them (I don't blame the string).  I only know of two (by the same bowyer) that failed with an HMPE string on them, and neither failure (one had a severe limb twist, the other delaminated the first time it was pulled to full draw) had anything to do with the string.

Point being, bows can and do fail, but rarely is it due to the string.  The string just gets the blame if it's an HMPE string on the bow when it blows.  If the bow has a dacron string when it fails, something else gets blamed.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Ralphie:
From all that has been said, I am thinking that FF material can be used, but using it will take a toll....

absolute nonsense.

hmpe string fibers will not harm any howard hill archery longbow, nor will the bow have a "shortened lifespan".    

i strongly suspect that craig knows that, too.  i have no idea why he specifies using dacron, nor do i care.  i've been spinning and twisting bowstrings since the mid 50's and aside from kevlar, all the polyethylene string fibers have been a boon to archery and not at all a detriment to modern bows, or archers.

in summation ... hmpe bowstings offer better functionality and performance over polyester bowstrings.  all modern stickbows are more than capable of handling hmpe bowstrings.

and no, ymmNOTv!  :D

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by LBR:
... I don't know of anyone that uses them just to pick up a couple fps.  Personally, I'd use them if they were a little slower than dacron--they offer many more benefits than speed. ...

+1 amen, brutha chad!

[Lee Robinson .]

I use dynaflight for one reason...better performance.

Better in terms of speed, durability, and less handshock.

I imagine bowyer's void warantees with flemish ONLY because some people simply make them wrong. I have seen some flemishes actually come apart when put on a bow because the person that made them twisted them up the WRONG WAY...but that is NOT a "flemish" problem. That is a craftsman's problem.

Some HH bows don't have tip overlays, but most do. With tip overlays, after trying nearly every type of synthetic string there is...I would use dynaflight. I don't like dacron, but the "spongy" stretch may be a life preserver on some OLD recurve bows that do not have tip overlays. This is NOT a concern IMO on a HH bow.

[Rob DiStefano]

+1 right on, lee!

[LongStick64]

This thread sort of reminds me of the Hill grip thread, which basically comes down to CHOICE. Whether FF is better than B50 (55) is debatable by personal choice. I doubt if the animals we shoot at can tell the difference. As far as durability, FF hands down wins and that's the only thing I can see as a difference. As far as "feel" this is where the debate begins. While a FF may not harm a Hill bow, it doesn't feel right on my fingers, I personally don't like skinny strings.
I find it amazing a simple Hill bow can complicate things.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by LongStick64:
This thread sort of reminds me of the Hill grip thread, which basically comes down to CHOICE. Whether FF is better than B50 (55) is debatable by personal choice. I doubt if the animals we shoot at can tell the difference. As far as durability, FF hands down wins and that's the only thing I can see as a difference. As far as "feel" this is where the debate begins. While a FF may not harm a Hill bow, it doesn't feel right on my fingers, I personally don't like skinny strings.
I find it amazing a simple Hill bow can complicate things.

right.  choices.  polyester or polyethylene.  

both will more than get the job at hand done if you do your part.

however, from a purely functional perspective, hmpe is scientifically superior to dacron in its use as a bowstring fiber.

and you do have the right to use fat hmpe strings and not skinny ones.  

no, your mileage may not differ.    :D

Why cannot one pad the serving if there is a feel problem with skinny strings?  I could see where there could be a feel problem with the skinny string biting deeper into some shooting gloves.

[Lee Robinson .]

Thanks Rob.

BTW, I forgot I once had an old Bear recurve that didn't have tip overlays on it that I used dynaflight on without any problems...BUT...I did some modifications to that bow.

It was not a "valuable" model or a collector, but a cheap light weight bow. It was around 40# at 28" originally I believe, but I took a belt sander to it...narrowed up the profile to bring it down to about 30#@28" and put maple tip overlays on it. Then gave it to my daughter for her "1st bow" to see if archery was something she liked. She did. Never had a problem with it, and I even shot it a few times myself after those modifications were made at my full draw length. If that bow could handle it (with the tip overlays added), I am sure you have nothing to worry about.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pavan:
Why cannot one pad the serving if there is a feel problem with skinny strings?  I could see where there could be a feel problem with the skinny string biting deeper into some shooting gloves.

more myths that require dispelling.

you grip the center serving and not the bowstring fiber itself.  and since the center serving needs to best fit the nock's throat - not too loose and never tight - it'll be thicker (via either larger diameter serving and/or padding) and thus it ain't gonna feel any different from a normally "fat" bowstring.