Hand shock hill style bows

[KPaul]

Can't wait to experience the 'hand shock' first hand.Got one on the way.Long bow shooter but all min are r/d.

[Dick in Seattle]

Rob pretty well nails it.   We are blessed with numerous styles of bows.  They shoot differently.  

Overall, generally, as a rule (have I qualified this enough?) I find that recurves shoot smoother than other bows.  They're very pleasant to shoot.  However, I find them large, heavy and awkward compared to other bows, but I don't complain about this every time I shoot one.  I have a couple of beauties... a vintage Widow and a vintage Bear.  I enjoy shooting them and won't part with them, but I don't shoot them as much because they aren't my favorites.

I find RD's are (again insert all of the qualifiers above) better performers.  I think the best technical work going into bow development today (speaking of what I consider true traditional bows, i.e. not IFL, metal riser, etc) is going on in RD's.  They're getting some incredible speed and accuracy.  Also some extremely lovely bows.  I have a couple of great ones, a Widow and a Berry and won't part with them.  I enjoy shooting them but I don't shoot them a lot because they aren't my favorites.

I have a lot of Hill styles and not just ones I built,  Craig Ekin, Ted Kramer, John Schulz and Howard himself.   I find them (please insert the qualifiers again) light and wonderful to handle, not as fast, a little tougher to master in terms of accuracy.  I love them for their lightness and ease of handling, their extra challenge, and above all because they are, to me, the tradition that I value.  I don't find them obnoxiously shocky, but there is more "feel".  For crying out loud, they weigh (qualifiers again) half or less what other bows weigh.  There are, within Hills, different classes... standard riser, forward riser, reflexed, straight and string follow.  Each has its own feel.

All of these types of bows are different.  I know I'm a lone voice here, but I think it's really unfortunate that RD's got identified as longbows.  To me, they're not the same thing at all.   They're RD's and they're wonderful bows, and they should be recognized for their own qualities and merits.  They combine some of the best of recurves and true longbows and should be valued as the development they are.

Given the variety of bows we have, it doesn't make sense to me to try a new style because it's different and then complain that it's different.  If you try something new and don't like it, or don't master it, go back to what you like but don't put it down because you didn't like it.

Hill styles are the closest we have to the original fiberglass laminated longbows of the 50's and 60's and have, rightly I think, a special place with shooters who value that tradition.   So do give them a try, but please, be fair, do it on their own terms.

OK, the grumpy old man is done....

[Jeff Strubberg]

Hill bows absolutely are shockier than most.


That's not the same thing as saying you can't tame them.  Grip changes, heavier arrows, etc.

[TSP]

Another Hill fan/owner here.  Also a recurve and hybrid fan/owner.  I have to agree with both Carbon Jack and Dick Wightman on this issue...Hill-style bows DO produce more vibration than R/D bows, especially those with massive risers (heavy).  The physical characteristics of that design (light, easy to tote and point, easier to feel string and limb vibration) make the question somewhat of a no-brainer, really.  BUT...if a .308 produces more vibration than a .22, and a steak is harder to chew than a peanut butter sandwich, and Budweiser kicks more than root beer, should we all start hating .308's, steaks and cold beer?  If so then count me out, dudes!

How one perceives the feel of a bow is as variable as how one perceives, well, pretty much anything compared to how someone else might see it.  It's all relative.

Yippee!  I get to disagree with Dick.  Not all Hill style bows are slower than recurves.  I have three two Schulz and one of my own tiller that are faster than my Bear takedown of the same draw weight and one yew/glass job that is lighter pull and the same cast as the Bear takedown.  As far as accuracy goes, you try to shoot them like a recurve perhaps the recurve will be more accurate, but shoot them like a longbow and the deer, rabbits and pheasants will say I am more accurate with the longbows. Although some longbows are knuckle busters, I have seen some that are not at all.  Seems the cleaner shooting ones also are the faster and more accurate of the standard reflex design. Seems to me as well that things can be done in the construction and cut to make them faster and have less bump.  But to judge a bow merely on the amount of hand bump is a ways down the list of what really counts in a good hunting bow as long as it not extreme.  However, a slight R/D shoots like a Hill style, has about the same forgiveness qualities and can do it with less shock, while putting out a nice quick arrow without as much variation from bow to bow for some reason.

[Dick in Seattle]

"Overall, generally, as a rule (have I qualified this enough?)"

You must have missed that, Pavan!    :^)

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pavan:
...  Not all Hill style bows are slower than recurves. ...

oh no, not at all true as long as both bows have the same true holding weight and are firing the same arrow ... pure physics.  

snaky limbs will always outperform straight or reflexed/backset limbs in terms of arrow speed.  

however, in terms of 'stability', my money's on the hill bow.

This is getting fun. Some clunky recurves are not so smooth or as fast as the real clean and lean longbows. Not just my opinion, one can go backk to the Sam fadala tests from years ago.  His reverse Schulz was faster than his Bear takedown.  Since I had both as well, my findings were the same as Sam's. Dick I did know what you were saying.  Pretty sure you have handled some clean and lean ones in your collection that were real shooters.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Imagine how bad it must've been for the poor old Indians or Mongols or English! It's a wonder any of them shot bows at all! They would've kept copping all that nasty shock, day-in, day-out.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pavan:
... Some clunky recurves are not so smooth or as fast as the real clean and lean longbows. ...

for the comparison to be valid, you need to compare 'like' bow types.  

pitting a ragim recurve against a david miller longbow may not be an appropriate comparison.  by the same token, neither would a blacktail recurve against an internature viper.    

there are other areas that can distort such testing, such as brace height and power stroke.

imo and for the very most part, a decent recurve will eat a decent hill-style long bow's speed lunch every time - but the recurve will lack 'stability'.  i'll take the longbow anyday, since speed don't kill, accurately placed sharp broadheads do.  :cool:

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Imagine how bad it must've been for the poor old Indians or Mongols or English! It's a wonder any of them shot bows at all! They would've kept copping all that nasty shock, day-in, day-out.

oh you guys! enuf already!  geez louise!      

hand shock?

the english, yes.

the indians, mostly yes, depends on what bow design, there were many.  

the mongols, nope!  those short double snaked recurves were most likely smooth shooters just like today's horse mongol bows.

look, just admit the plain fact that hill longbows are what they are - loaded with 'hand shock' - and that you CAN overcome the shock IF you want.   :D

[Ricker]

I'm shocked by all this!!!  

[todd smith]

I'm a fan, but all the glass backed so called "Hill" bows that I have sot had hand shock.  Talk to Jim Belcher about a true Hill longbow made by Howard and it's a different story you'll hear.

I still need to shoot David Miller's special crowned bamboo longbows.  My guess is that's gonna be one sweet shootin' bow that will but the so called "Hill" style bows to shame...  todd

[Blueridge]

Just got a Hill Wesley Special, no hand shock at all. Out of the dozen or so recurves and rd's I own this one is fast becoming one of my favorites.

[Rik]

M A N. . . I must be a major loser. A wanker of the first degree.

I don't hold my Hill bows any different than I hold a recurve or a compound.

I just hold them, and I just shoot them.

Have yet to feel any hand shock.

Haven't starved YET, although I am worried that if I hold my Hill bow the wrong way there won't be any more fresh meat in the freezer.

(If you believe the last part of that last statement, you are definitely holding your bow wrong.)

[Carbon Jack]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

Originally posted by pavan:
...  Not all Hill style bows are slower than recurves. ...

oh no, not at all true as long as both bows have the same true holding weight and are firing the same arrow ... pure physics.  

snaky limbs will always outperform straight or reflexed/backset limbs in terms of arrow speed.  

however, in terms of 'stability', my money's on the hill bow. [/b]

Rob, I've yet to read a single thing you've posted I disagree with. Keep at it.

Jack

[Kris]

I said NO, given the overly simple parameters you've provided above.  I would go on to say that I love Hill style bows and any other straight end longbow or longbow with setback.  Hand shock is not a desirable trait of any type of bow and it is not necessarily characteristic of HH per se.  If I had a HH with "hand shock", I'd send it back to Craig for re-tillering, only after I had spent a significant amount of time tuning it to the point where I thought it was out of tiller and something should be done about it.  I've owned very sweet shooting Hill bows but again this statement is relative at best.  Shoot one bow (any type of bow) against another and you will almost always be able to say one is "smoother" than the other.  It's relative.

Kris

[gregg dudley]

Originally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Imagine how bad it must've been for the poor old Indians or Mongols or English! It's a wonder any of them shot bows at all! They would've kept copping all that nasty shock, day-in, day-out.

Them dudes would have picked up a r/d longbow quicker than they picked up winchesters!    :D

Went out and shot both of my from hill blank longbows.  They both have fast flights on them, nope, no hand shock, Well maybe just a smidge more than my Robertsons by a tiny bit and quick enough to kill anything on this continent, pound for pound maybe just an almost imperceptible twinge less than the Robertsons.  Sorry, but they both seem faster than the 53 pound 52" Ben Pearson that I took along for comparison.  That recurve must be slow, anybody want to buy it for cheap?  Just kidding kind of, I love my longbows.

[Tajue17]

honestly this shock stuff,,, to me its a hundred individuals out there with 100 different opinions of shock,, not really you guys but the thousands more who don't really shoot "hill style" and some are my friends.  

bottom line if you don't hold the bow How it wants to be held like a woman it will be shocky and tempermental,  shock to me is a few of my Osage selfbows which I love dearly but when I think any bow as shock I shoot one of those for a day and then go back to the bow with shock which is just a little vibration it's like butter..  

also do you like riding a harly or a Honda,,, because shock or what some people describe as shock to me is sometimes a good thing or something I look forward too,,   I like the feel of the bike, I like the kick or recoil of the gun, and sometimes I like the shock of the bow---> my strunk vibrates more than my big five but by the time I notice it the arrow is gonnnzzzzoooo!