Serious question: One Lung hits ????

[KSdan]

Dead center on SPINE.


 

[KSdan]

Here is a true 220# field dressed deer.  In other words- he is BIG.  The tape and marks are the ACTUAL anatomy.  The dark line above the lungs is the SPINE. The dark line below the lungs is the sternum bone. Now notice the measurement in inches. At the shoulder- the SPINE runs half way down the deer.  I think many people shoot above this half way point and speak of "high lung" or "void."  Fact of the matter they went OVER the spine.

Note: the vital/lung area is not much bigger than 7" x 7"-  I can cover that with my hand.  AND REALIZE- this is a brute of a mature buck.  A doe would be 2/3 to 1/2 of this vital size!

Also- the carcass is hanging so the "elbow" is shifted forward.  The "wound" is actually dead centered on the heart which is just above the elbow on a standing deer.
 
Personal experience got me into this education.            


     

[Onehair]

Here is a link to my experience last year pictures included.
 http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=202401&category=88#2617024

[Huntschool]

Dont shoot me.... This is not a thread hijack either......

I have to ask the question...  Why take a shot that has a high % of a single lung hit?  For tree stand hunters, we have preached for ever not to take those close high angle shots...  Deaf ears?

I understand a deflection (that one happened to me this year and I was lucky) and I can see a misplaced shot (that can happen to anyone for all kinds of reasons) and sure, some folks might mis "see" their angle, but why take a low % shot at all?

OK, now experience.. I have only had two deer (prior to this year) in my bowhunting experience take a one lung shot and this is confirmed after examination.  In both cases I hit another major organ and the deer expired in short order.  One was, in fact, a tree stand shot that I thought was of a low enough angle to get them both. Did not happen but I did get the heart. (still not sure how)  Deer jumped, traveled 30-40 yds and started walking off and fell over...

Other one was almost identical but with longer travel.

I really try and keep my shot angles low (I do not get any higher than 12 ft in a stand) and don't shoot at anything greater than 20-22 yards.

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

check out deer and deer hunting's fall issue. A great article about deer anatomy by a wildlife biologist covering all of your questions.

yes a hole in the chest cavity in front of the diaphram will kill the deer. the distance a deer will travel depends a lot on where in the lung the hit arrow strikes. Both low and high hits bleed much less then in the center hits allowing the deer more blood to its brain for a longer period of time. And most importantly there is NO void area above the lungs and below the spine

[BobCo 1965]

Originally posted by Huntschool:
I have to ask the question...  Why take a shot that has a high % of a single lung hit?  For tree stand hunters, we have preached for ever not to take those close high angle shots...  Deaf ears?

 

I would hope that a person would not purposely shoot for one lung, but lets face it, stuff does happen sometimes out of the hunters complete control. I didn't get the feeling that this is the purpose of the thread.

Onehair, thanks for the link. I had a similar experience.

[ArrowAtomik]

My brother shot high on a huge buck this year with his compound from the ground with slight upwards angle (deer was on top of him and too close for his 20 yard pin).  Arrow was sticking through both sides and we never recovered it.  We waited 4 hours and proceeded a very slow and quiet tracking job.  After the entire afternoon, I mapped out that we tracked him well over 1200 yards, not including zig-zagging, most of the trail he was walking very slowly.  There was a steady drip and we found a few large piles of extremely frothy stuff that was surely from a lung hit in my opinion, but never a bed, and eventually everything petered out and we never found him.  I wasn't there for the shot, but I figured he hit top of the lung on the way in and angling up decently, went just under the spine, missing any meaningful damage to the off lung.  Not sure if he could have lived or not.  The learning I tried to impart to him though, was to have a trad bow on hand next time when attempting 5 yard ground shots at monster deer.

[RC]

This is the Buck NC was talking about.I appreciate the compilment Brother but I`m just lucky a lot and live in Gods Country. My good Buddy Chris Spikes shot this deer at 4-6 yards. As often happens it was a brown blur when he shot and he thought he had gut shot it as he replayed the shot in his head.We were on public land camping and decided to wait till 3 in the afternoon to take up the trail on the gut shot deer.The arrow did`nt have a drop of blood on it.On the way to the shot location we got on a group of pigs and another Buddy shot a pig so we got started trailing at around 4:30. I picked up blood quick and we got started . At about 6:00 we jumped the deer a mile from the shot location.Chris is sharp on the gps and computer so this is not a guessed distance. It ran another 150 yards and was sitting up erect when Chris walked up and shot it again.Bottom of one lung. When we got on the pigs we were about 75 yards from where the deer bedded and unknowingly caused him to move then.I think if we had not pushed this deer he may have lived ..who knows.The arrow came out his brisket and I think the soft bone "cleaned the arrow off as it went through.
  Another question. The blood trail was an easy one except in a place or two...do you think we would have found the deer with a smaller broadhead in the same place being used? I say no but theres no way to tell.RC

[Wary Buck]

KS Dan--I've twice hit does in or about where your cutaway view (with arrow in) shows; maybe just a hair forward.  Dropped in their tracks with an arrow halfway down the body line.  I was pretty incredulous.  

Another thing I think fools people on exactly where they hit is the optical illusion that we are looking at a 3-D target (usually from an angle above).  So the top part of the deer might read to our brain as the top outline of a deer standing level and broadside to us, but in reality, the top outline is actually a little bit of the body on the other side of center.  Does that make any sense?  If I could draw a picture, it would be easy to explain.

I think there are plenty of guys who have hit a fair bit down from the top of the outline of the deer, but because they were from an elevated perch, they actually hit near the top of the deer, through the backstraps, and then out the other side of the deer through more backstraps, some rib meat, and maybe grazing one lung on the other side.

Sorry for the thread highjack.

[Guru]

Dan, Not to go against what you're saying about the spine....but that first arrow is way too far forward(second pic), and would be in shoulder bones.  I think we all know that the spine dips as it comes out of the neck.But it quickly rises through the chest cavity.

On your taped up pic, I believe the tape line that you have marked as the spine in the actual top of the chest cavity(ribs), the spine sits, I would say about an inch higher than that.

We could go back and forth on this...I tell ya what, I have a 110# doe hanging I shot, that I'm about to go butcher....I'll check it out and see what I can come up with.


Back to one lung hits.....

Robert...I agree with the answer to your question...but as you say, "there's no way to tell"

[KSdan]

I agree Bryce.  We are shooting a 3-D "barrel."  Your examples of deer dropping is reality. Center the shoulder and you will center the spine.  TWO  INCHES above horizontal center and you have a lost deer!

I do not see a hijack from any of you.  This is an important discussion.  

My goal is NOT to be "right."  But I do love the "truth."  Truth corresponds to reality.  Truth hits me between the eyes all the time!  

Few guys I know REALLY spend the time to autopsy their deer and STUDY what occurred, the anatomy etc.  The pics I posted with measurements are actual.  I put nails through the spine and sternum allowing them to protrude through the rib cage/carcass so I could lay the tape accurately.  

Another educative example:  Look at the actual anatomy pics I posted above of the sternum area.  That sternum bone and cartilage is 3-4" thick.  Add to that the hide and long belly hair and realizes that one could potentially hit a deer 4-5" from the bottom of the "observed" belly line and still not get into the vitals!  This is very different than 2-D pictures reveal.
   
LESSONS that sober me and keep me honest:  1) I need to hit a 6" dia. target that is on the inside of a barrel (angles are important)- WHILE it is moving through the woods, when I am nervous, the wind is blowing, the deer "looks" the size of a horse (ever heard of ground shrinkage?), I am not warmed up. . . .   2) There is more bone and cartilage to contend with than 2-D "drawings" of anatomy suggest. 3) There is something to be said about a clean flying scary sharp two bladed head (30+ years of hunting and I have been more convinced on this the past few years) 4) My affective range is FAR shorter than what I can shoot at a target in my backyard!  5) AND- when we do cleanly harvest ANY deer, we have REALLY received a great gift and accomplishment.  

By the way-  MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS!!

Dan in KS

[KSdan]

Curt- not sure what you mean ""too far forward."??

The arrow was shot off the ground and dead centered (top to bottom) the shoulder- as pictured. (The elbow sagged forward a bit on the hanging carcass- but the arrow is still centered on the shoulder)  

The second pic is leaving the arrow where it hit while removing the shoulder from around it (does that makes sense?).    

As I stated in a later post here- the line is the actual spine column (bottom edge) as I pushed nails through in various spots to get the line. Anything on /or above that line is non-vital.

I have done this often. . .  I will be curious to see what your study reveals.

Thanks for the input- good conversation

Dan

[longbowben]

Great pictures KSdan i also say thier is a void close to the spine,An arrow passes through that area and you never find that animal.And some deer can live through hits that most animals would fall over in thier tracks.Just like the buck that lived for 6 days after one lung hit that KS TRAPER backed up with great pictures that we all should learn from.

[Guru]

This is good discussion, and something most folks don't pay enough attention to...

1. As far as the "void" above the spine....I'm pretty sure it's been proven that there isn't one. On a healthy deer with working lungs and pressure from the diaphram...the cavity is full.  Think about your own chest/lungs...if there was room in there for your lungs to move around, we'd certainly feel it and would lead to all kind of injuries from activity and contact.  I'm pretty sure it's the same with deer......my experience...


Tracy's deer was hit a little back and too low. We've talked a lot about it. If he'd would have hit 2 inches higher...he would have walked up on a dead deer that morning.


2. As far as the spine being halfway down the body thru the chest....

Here are some pix from my doe I butchered today...

As you can see, in this first pic, I have the tape across the shoulder area, further forward than we like to hit. Even there, the spine is not at the halfway point. The chest is 12" deep, which puts the center at 6", and the bottom of the spinal bones are at 4.5"...
•  

In this pic, the tape is right about where we like to hit them,tight to the front leg. The chest here is about 13", which puts the center at 6.5", bottom of the spinal bones are at 4". A full 2.5" higher than center...
•  


•  

Good stuff!!

[owlbait]

The dog tracking book "Dead On" I think has some great one lung information. From the pics I see today I figure the doe I shot this year was above the spine, and therefore, above the lungs. No blood sign with a Snuffer after the arrow came out 40 yards away. Thanks for the pics, they should be archived somewhere.

[kennyb]

Great information guys! very stimulating and I do believe this is the real "Hunting University" !! Thanks a bunch!

 

[Bowwild]

Guru,
I've been a bowhunter ed instructor and a wildlife biologist for more than 30 years.  Those pictures you posted are the most enlightening I've ever witnessed.  Thank-you!

Since starting deer hunting in 1970 (I used to think it was 1969 but I was wrong) I've hit two deer above the spine -- just above. I knew I was too high but thought I was low enough. Both resulted in long blood trails that petered out and no deer. These two deer were among the closest shots I've ever taken (thus the high hits but boy I kicked myself for blowing such gimmee shots!).

I've killed several deer from tree stands where I was so low the arrow exited at the midline of the body between the forelegs. Both shots got the bottom of the heart and resulted in profuse blood trails and found deer in less than 100 yards.

I'm sure I've single-lunged some deer but also got heart or liver in these cases and deer were easily found, again in less than 100 yards.

I've talked to vets and took a class in college and to become an EMT.  Pneumothorax occurs when the thoracic cavity is punctured.  The cavity fills with blood slowly suffocating the victim or quickly killing the victim if lungs, heart or major veins or arteries are cut.  

I think it is very important the deer not know the source of the trouble. Give a deer a cause and direction of the trouble and the adrenalin dump can take a deer many yards quicker than you can climb down the tree.  This is one reason I'm exremely reluctant to bleat at or otherwise try to stop a deer unless I don't think it will stop on its own.

[Bowwild]

By the way, 1st aid for a chest puncture (sucking chest wound) is to put an airtight bandage (plastic sheeting under bandage) over the hole. This helps restore proper pressure. Of course this does nothing to stop the internal bleeding (if more than a collasped lung) and the eventual pneumothorax.

[KSdan]

Agree Curt.  Good pics.   This is an average doe, correct? Exactly what I have found.

Now- turn over the carcass. (I measure the outside circum. of the carcass with a cloth tape).  I will gladly concede an inch- not going to argue about a knuckle length.  But if you shoot above the half way point- particularly where the heart lays- you are on/crowding the spine. An inch above that and you are over the spine. This is what happens often with guys out of tree-stands thinking they have a high lung.  This is why Bryce saw two does drop in their tracks when he hit them in what appeared to be mid-way.  I have lost four deer in 33 years of bowhunting and all of them were because they were too high.  The first I was convinced of high lung until I tracked it for 3 miles in the snow, learned a great lesson, then started studying anatomy.

Also notice that the sternum on your pic takes up 2.5".  So the heart/lung area comprises an area about 6" x 6". (narrower on the front- wider in the back).

Now look at the pic of the big buck I posted.  It is almost identical only with larger proportions. The spine at the front end of the chest cavity (where the heart lays) is 7" down.  It moves up to 6" as you move back along the lungs.  Then there was 6" x 7" of vital lung/heart cavity (The liver lays on the back line). Then 3"-3.5" of sternum.  The total from top to bottom is 15".  So- I guess if we are being technical- you are correct- it is NOT truly HALF WAY.  It is in the low 40s%.  

I still think the 2-D drawings give the impression that a guy can shoot a couple inches below the top line and still be lung.  I just do not see it that way with all my studies.

I always pick a spot half way and below.  When I hit that I never have a problem. And I autopsy most of my deer.  

My deer from KS this year was possible because of this knowledge.    http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=097741    
He was just 6-8 yards from my stand.  I was able to lace the arrow right behind the shoulder blade and 6" down off his back line. I took out the top of the onside lung while still taking out the bottom of the offside.  Had I hit 1.5" higher I would have hit the spine (another autopsy conclusion.)

I stand corrected.  Excellent discussion.  I will keep studying it and second guess my conclusions- until next week when I take my late season does!
         


Dan in KS

[John Scifres]

My guidance counselor in Middle School only had one lung.  He chased me out of the school one Saturday and he didn't die.  I think he lived to about 70.