respect for the animal

[dick sable]

Several recent threads regarding relative bow weights and killing big game touched a raw nerve for me. I agree with the comments pointing out needlessly increasing margin of error and possibly courting disaster with ineffectual bow weights.

We see an occasional thread about a poor hit, or even a "good" hit that ends in unrecovered game.  Sometimes I wonder, in reality, how often that occurs and is never mentioned.  Even with commonly accepted totally sufficient bow weights, the other important variables such as arrow tuning that factor into the "penetration equation" are frequently never addressed. How many deer or other big game animals are last seen fleeing the shot with two, three or four inches of shaft penetration? IMHO, respect for the animal should be paramount. Taking wingshots at larger game with minimally weighted bows, improperly tuned shafts, improper broadheads, etc. is not only naive, but entirely disrespectful to the life and beauty of the animal. Size the equipment to the animal.  There are plenty of rabbits, squirrels and the like to kill - - or better yet, stumps, paper and foam. Not trying to be negative toward anyone in particular.  Maybe it has something to do with the 4 seasons in the life of a bowhunter.
Respectfully,
Dick

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I completely agree.
There's a point where light bows, too light of an arrow, and poor shooting results in lost animals.

I've seen it many times on hunting shows where usually the wife or girlfriend of the guy who the tv show belongs to. Using a 40lb. bow (or less) and arrows the size of soda straws (and not much heavier) hits a deer in the shoulder and it runs off with what appears like the entire shaft waving back and forth with maybe only the broadhead embedded in the deer?

Then they miraculously show her posing with the animal moments later. It really makes me wonder how much later it was when they finally found it?
And I wonder if it required the use of tracking dogs to find it?

Light poundage + light arrow + poor shooting = Failure

[SveinD]

 

Unless you are a good enough shot to make brain+double eye shots frequently, you need some punch behind the arrow.
I'm not saying only ppl like RagingWater should be able to hunt Rabbits, as that would exclude 99% of us from bow hunting;)

[Covey]

I have the upmost respect for the animals I hunt... but not all people can draw 55 and 60# bows. That would really limit people that want to deer hunt. I know a fella whose wife shoots a 36# Bear bow and the first doe she shot, got a complete pass through! I think alot of it has to do with proper tuning. As long as I can shoot bows in the 50 or 60# range I will, but I'm not gonna give up when I get alittle older and have to go down in weight. Plus I wouldnt' want to discourage kids just because they can't pull 55# bow's! JMHO! Jason

[Rob DiStefano]

couldn't have said it better, dick.  

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Covey:
I have the upmost respect for the animals I hunt... but not all people can draw 55 and 60# bows. That would really limit people that want to deer hunt. I know a fella whose wife shoots a 36# Bear bow and the first doe she shot, got a complete pass through! I think alot of it has to do with proper tuning. As long as I can shoot bows in the 50 or 60# range I will, but I'm not gonna give up when I get alittle older and have to go down in weight. Plus I wouldnt' want to discourage kids just because they can't pull 55# bow's! JMHO! Jason

imo, it's this kinda thinking that gets "us", trad bowhunting, in trouble.

if you can't employ proper trad tackle for the type of game hunted, use another form of weaponry.  yes, really.  no one said trad would be easy on many levels.  

saying that a 36# bow is okay for deer hunting is a marginal statement at best, and not for newbies or amateurs.  taking that same gear to stalk a 150# hog is, well, plain dumb.

do your own ethical assessment of your abilities and tackle and game hunted.

[Cory Mattson]

Excellent post!

I agree completely and think about this often. One issue is equipment. The other recovery. I am convinced that all fatally hit game can be recovered if the proper woodsmansip and follow up is applied. I am also convinced there is too much focus on light equipment using starting with the premise that broadheads kill by hemorage which I am not a fan of. Broadheads will kill by hemorage but I'll take the pneumothorax every day. But hey don't want to highjack your thread but you guys can hunt with me ANY time.
Good Hunting<><
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[PEARL DRUMS]

That is the exact reason I have an open mind regarding other styles of bows "invading" our sport Rob, we all deserve to hunt. I generally keep my nose out of these topics, but this one has been nagging! If you cant pull 40+ pounds, choose another way to fling arrows until you can. We talk about how good a 35# bow would work if the hit was perfect, if the broad head was razor sharp, if the animal was within "x" distance and so on, then we hand that same bow to an unexperinenced hunter and expect perfect decisions from them? I say unexperienced hunters because generally, not always, unexperinenced or young hunters shoot very light bows. My son is 12 and he has yet to bow hunt with his bow in hand, he cant get over 30-35#, I wont set him up for failure and he understands why. We have a very nice wheeled contraption hanging at his disposal, he chooses to wait until he is strong enough to do it "his way"..

[Pepper]

You all have made very good points, and I don't have anything additional to say except that I concur with the rational that you must use enough equipment properly tuned, and the hunter must be"properly tuned", to give the animal an honorable harvest.
Thank you for your concerns, and input, I hope more tradgangers read this.

[Hill Hunter]

one of the best game laws IMO is the minimum draw weight  on bows, in Ohio 45# is the minimum you can legally hunt deer with, I think that is a great law, as said above there are other ways to fling arrows, and the animal should not have to suffer because of our pride.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Originally posted by dick sable:
 IMHO, respect for the animal should be paramount.

  There are plenty of rabbits, squirrels and the like to kill - -
Respectfully,
Dick

I'm trying to see if you actually meant we need to respect big game and not small game with the shots we take?  

Personally I dont see how a deer has any more sentient value than a  ground squirrel or a zucchini. Therefore we need to make a conscious effort to make quick and ethical kills in any given circumstance.

if the shot is not a high percentage shot, it should not be taken. Period.  If given data, past experiences and testing conclude, your bow weight is not enough; it should not be used. Period.  

I will stand back and allow other people determine what weight is not enough.  It seems as if these arguments always have a sliding scale of what is and what isn't based on peoples personal opinion.

I know my set up is sufficient. May mistakes happen?  Yes! that is natures way.

I see squirrels fall out of trees by accident. I see pike miss or maim their prey by accident.  I see deer and goats that fall off cliffs, by accident.  So if a twig deflects and arrow that you did not see, or an elephant jumps your string and the shot placement is poor; it happens.  It doesn't make you feel any better but we chose our weaponry and our limitations.  

I am not jumping down  Dicks throat as I'm not sure I interpreted his post correctly.  This debate over weight is wishy, washy and will never go away.  Its like abortion and religious debates. There are far to many people with opinions.  There may not be a right answer.  

This is why, any one who wants to attack my stance, go ahead because I know I am right.... And so are you !              And further more, I would probably still share camp with you.

   

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Originally posted by Cory Mattson:
Excellent post!
 
One issue is  recovery. I am convinced that all fatally hit game can be recovered if the proper woodsmansip and follow up is applied.

 But hey don't want to highjack your thread but you guys can hunt with me ANY time.
Good Hunting<><
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I agree with Corey!

[ishoot4thrills]

Oh boy, this is gonna get interesting.      

[rastaman]

Size the equipment to the animal.  

 

i didn't take Dick's post to mean squirrels and such were not animals whose lives should not be respected.  i took it to mean if you could only shoot light weight bows, then hunt the appropriate animal with that weight.  

[Mudd]

Here is a quote That I can and do totally agree with!!

Rob-"do your own ethical assessment of your abilities and tackle and game hunted".

Having said that, I'll take accuracy and penetration over all else.

I want to be as close as possible when I drop the string and the animal has to be in the right position or it's still "no shot".

Happy New Year!!

God bless
Roy L "Mudd" Williams

[Shawn Leonard]

Wow, sorry but I disagree with Rob 100%. I know people who have killed bears and deer with bow weights in the high 30s and low 40# weights! If someones bow is properly tuned and they shoot razor sharp heads and limit their shot to no more than 20 yards and 15 is better no reason they should not hunt a lot of big game!! Moose have been taken with 45# bow weights. I bet there are alot more deer hit and lost with a lot heavier bows, because more people shoot heavy weights and make poor shots than with people who shoot 35 to 40# bows because most of those folks know their limits and are more careful than th others!! Sorry, but for an Admin. of a traditional site to post those comments is odd to me. Wait til your 75 and want to stay in the Trad game and can only shoot 35 to 40#s and than tell us how ya feel!! Shawn

[DBinAlamo]

Here we go...  

[zipper bowss]

Some good points made here,and I agree with them,to a point.Sending someone to the woods with light tackle,or any archery gear in the hands of someone who is not proficient IS irresponsable. If that hunter is not profiecient, then a bow that is 5 or 10 lbs heavier will rarely if ever make up for a poor shot or an irresponsabe shot.
It has been said many times that a properly tuned bow,arrow and bradhead combination is a very lethal weapon.If you do not believe that just go to my website and watch Tracy put down deer and bear quickly and humanely.She has killed 5 deer and a bear with 40lbs bow @ 25" of drawlength.Only 2 were not complete pass throughs.1 hit the off side shoulder and the other was the MN doe in the video that droped at the shot.The arrow went in the deer midway up the left side of the deer and as the deer droped it lodged in the spine.Yes the deer was down instantly and dead in just a couple of seconds.
One thing people have to keep in mind is not all set ups are created equal.I have the benefit of being able to build Tracy a bow that is designed for max performance at her 25" drawlength.This helps,obviously you can never completley make up for the loss of drawlength when you compare a 25" drawlength to a 30" drawlength.It just is not possable.However, when you combine a bow designed for her 25" drawlength and a 450 grain arrow.Not just any 450 grain arrow,an arrow assembled using Dr.Ashby's prinicpals.You end up with a very lethal combination.
Ofcourse, there are obvious limits.She would never head out to tie into a 250 lbs. hog with this set up.It just is not up to that task.She knows that,and accepts those limits.A whitetail,turkey,or even bear are well within her tackles limits.
One thing I have learned through my experiences in traditional archery.There are very few blanket statements that can be made.There are just to many veriables.That is why each case has to be taken as such.A different case.I dont mean this to sound sour,because its not.That is just the way it is.
Respectfully
Bill

[ksbowman]

I am a firm beleiver that there are very few men that cannot shoot a 45# recurve. I led a move in the late 70's to establish a minimum bow weight of 45# for biggame in Kansas and got it enacted. It has since been taken off the books by others.There are too many people that don't want to put forth the effort to keep in shape and shoot everyday or every other day to keep their muscles toned and their shooting sharp. Alot just look for an easy way out of any endeaver they take. I personally have never bowhunted with less than 50# bow and when the day comes that I can no longer hunt with at least a 45#er I will resign myself to small game and targets.

[Cherokee Scout]

This is a tough topic, plenty of disagreements.
In my opinion there are far more deer wounded because of poor shot selection and poor shooting skills than poor penetration.
I am ashamed to admit that in the past I have hit deer in the shoulder using a 75# compound and not recovered the animal, so poundage will not make up for a bad hit.
I agree we should shoot max weight possible, but must shoot it accurately.
Taking shots beyond our accurate range, shots with animal in wrong position, shooting at alert animals, or shooting thru limbs and brush is the cause of most bad hits.
A lot of guys get so nervous at the time of the shot, they do not pick a spot, some shake so bad they can barely stand, higher poundage will not help them.