respect for the animal

[arrowslinger22]

The equipment and shot are one thing, having the ability and knowledge to track is another.  Unfortunately, a third is the commitment to find the animal.  I've seen the third as a problem way too many times, with hunters giving up after 15 minutes. Good thread.

[hova]

just to put my thoughts out there , as a new trad archer and later today a trad hunter , but a gun/wheelie bow hunter. there were disciplines instilled in me by my father.

he taught me to respect your animal's life. use the right equipment for the circumstances. and if you dont have a good shot , dont shoot.


i have never had an issue . i have also never shot a deer. seen a bunch , but i was never fully confident in the shot , so i didnt take it.


at the end of the day , if you wound an animal , you track it till you find it. you owe it to that animal. if you dont track it , youre the one who has to live with that decision . if i see a wounded animal , i pu it out of its misery (i have done this twice , but i dont consider it getting an animal hunting).


as far as poundage of bows , i dont want to speculate what is a good draw weight , because there are so many other factors. like has been said before , id rather you shoot a 45# bow that you can bullseye every time , opposed to a 60lb bow you cant even hold form when drawn...

-hov

[Shawn Leonard]

I was not trying to stir the pot or anything just stating facts. KSbowman, when has hunting become only a mans sport? There are plenty of women and young men in states that allow bowhunting at 12 years old or younger and a lot of those women and young men cannot shoot more than 40#s. Just look at Bills(ZipperBows) post, that says it all! I look on the good side of folks and honestly believe that when they shoot those low weights they know and learn their limits pretty quick and hunt ethically. Shawn

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There's more to it then just Trad gear. When I lived in Jersey the place I hunted was right next to a person that didn't allow trespassers. I lost a few deer from them run over to that land.

I even had a CO go with me and the guy told him... If there is a dead deer on My, that is where it will lay... The CO took him off to the side and was talking with Him, Then came back and told Me the guy will let me recover My deer for a fee.. The CO told how much and even said it was out of this world. So when deer ran on that land they where gone...

[Bob Morrison]

BTW Ohio has a 40# limit.. I see this all the time Speed is overrated...and your need a 2 blade 600+ gr. arrow. I have seen 60# bows with badly turned arrows and broadheads that should not be shot at any big game...Us with shoot draws need all the help we can get. There are 40# bows out there that will out shoot (Speed) other bows of the same pounds. So speed is inportant.broudhead weight next (heavy sharp). A heavy tip will out penatrate a light tip everytime. Low pounds and short draw, Buy the fastest bow you can and shoot a heavy head (250++)lightest shaft that will tune properly.
Bill and Tracy work at getting Tracy's setup right and it works.My last doe was 43# @26 and that is all I can get, 300 gr. 3blade Ultra light shaft......25yrds 2 holes 100yrds trail job. If you can shoot more poundage very, very comfortable and accurate, good for you.

[hogdancer]

here is something else to throw in the mix, cherokee scout  nailed it, traditional archers are generally pretty poor shots, if you don't think so pay attention next time you go to a 3-d shoot. When I look around at a shoot I can't help thinking that a large number of the shooters really should not be shooting at live animals. Hopefully they know that and are using other means to hunt but just having fun at a shoot. We need to quit using traditional as an excuse for poor shooting.

[SaMbO2]

When i was ten years old my father told me if i can shoot all my arrows in a 3D deers kill zone he would take me hunting this fall so i shot and shot and shot then finally i was shooting good enough were he thought i could do it my hunting bow was a Bear alaskan 45# at 28'' now i just asked my dad how many pounds he thought i would have been pulling then and he just told me about 30 pounds well hunting season went on and no shots were taken and at this time i was snap shooting BUT every time were got to were we were hunting i would do a practice pull and so time gos on and i turn 11 and so now ill get to the hunt we went on our first morning hunt to my fathers favorite tree stand and when i got up to the stand i thought no way i am not going all the way up there then right at that moment i heard deer coming and so i went up the tree as fast as i could then time gos by and bucks are going every were and my father did a bleat call and this nice young buck is coming on a trail at 5 yards away from the tree and its just perfect and right when i was going to let it fly my Dad thought to him self im going to shoot right over its back but i picked my spot got to full draw double lunged the deer the arrow went thru both sides ran 30 yards or so and died.

Now from what i read from some of you guys you would have never have giving me a chance and said its a lost cause.

My father is the greatest and gave me a chance, that deer is now hanging nicely in my room and with memories that will last forever.

Thanks and God bless.

[TimRadke]

While I agree with most on here, it all comes down to knowing your effective range... considering both your shooting ability and your equipment capability.  I've had plenty of people tell me that "instinctive wounds too many deer", and this is always my answer.  It doesn't matter if you're shooting a .300 WinMag, or using a pocket knife, it's all about knowing what your equipment can do, and what you can do with it.

My wife has taken 5 deer with a 40 lb 24" draw bow... and all but one was a full pass through.

[ksbowman]

Shawn, I too was not trying to stir the pot.I only stated my personal feelings and fully realize they don't always align with others.It has not became a man's sport,I was only using that as an example, but you should use equiptment to do the job everytime you enter the woods to hunt. As stated above there is other equiptment available to use that for those that unable to use traditional.

[Shawn Leonard]

I did not relate this earlier but about 5 years ago I had shoulder surgery. I wengt out and bought a 38# Widow, which was 41#s at my draw. I pride myself in being able to tune my bow and arrow combo and got perfect flight from a 600spine with 175 grains up front, I was shooting a bit less than 8gpp. and a 4 blade steelforce. I killed 4 deer that year with that set-up one being a buck that dressed at 167#s. I got 2 holes one every deer and complete pass thrus on 2, none went over 60 yards. I alsokilled a 42# coyote at close to 40 yards with e. the aroow entering the right ham and poking out in the center of the chest just right of the left shoulder. Sorry but don't tell me that light bows when properly tuned with proper shot selection won't kill deer and big deer. When I am old and grey and can only shoot 35#s, I will still be hunting deer and other game and limiting my shots to ones that I am confident I can put it in the goodies at close range. We all really need to stop using our traditional gear as an excuse for poor shooting, if ya can't put a razor sharp arrow into a 6" circle everytime at a given distance say 15yds. for light bows and out to 40yds. for heavy bow than don't shoot! Shawn

[greyghost]

In my opinion there are far more deer wounded because of poor shot selection and poor shooting skills than poor penetration.

Thanks John, best statement of this thread so far.

Shawn, no pot stirring that I seen.

I can remeber my father and grandfather and their friends agreeing to disagree on the same subject back when. LOL

I think this is a good discussion and makes me re-think where I stand on this matter. Thanks.

Earl

[RC]

Bow pounds to a point ain`t a really big deal on deer. It don`t take much to shoot through the lungs on one. I shoot 45-48 pound longbows. Mild r/d bows not known for blistering speed. 550 grain arrows and usually a big Magnus I broadhead. Recently I`ve been shooting ww heads.I shoot through everything I shoot at. A 35 lb hard shooting recurve or radical R/D with a 500 grain arrow and lets say a Grizzley or no mercy head would probably penetrate better than what I shoot now.

  In my opinion accuracy is far more important than lbs. I`m not a good shot but if you pull up some of my post you`ll see I rarely kill a critter over 10 yards...15 is loonnnggg for me.I find everything I shoot at because I take close shots and can hit where I`m looking at that distance. At 20 yards I`m purty poor...thats why my shots are about HALF THAT DISTANCE!!!!
  If we could come up with something to hook on a fellas bow that won`t let him shoot past what he can shoot a 6" group under pressure these type discussions would go away.RC

[amar911]

We all know that most people will not, or cannot, obtain the strength or the skill or the proper equipment to hunt as traditional archers. That is one of many reasons we should not be elitist when other folks use compounds, crossbows, or firearms. Everyone needs to use equipment that will result in ethical kills. All of us here enjoy shooting trad equipment, but there are always situations that will cause us to give it up, either temporarily or permanently, like injury, disease or age. Hopefully, we can all continue to enjoy being out in the woods hunting, even if we have to use other means of harvesting game animals. First and foremost, we need to be sure to always maintain solidarity with everyone who promotes our outdoor hunting and fishing heritage, or we are at great risk of losing it! Second, don't feel bad about needing to use something other than traditional archery equipment to hunt if you are not able to shoot well enough or heavy enough to have clean kills. There is nothing wrong with confining yourself to using trad equipment for shooting inanimate targets. Presumably, that is what we are all shooting most of the time anyway.

Allan

[dick sable]

I totally agree with Bob Morrison's comments.  As I recall, he was one of the very first to advocate the heavy weight forward system.  Rob DiStefano knows more about heavy FOC than the vast majority of trad shooters. Bill has a unique situation in which to build the perfect bow for the circumstance. All priceless advice. That said, the point is that most folks shooting bows in the 35-40# range would be well advised to take the time and effort to duplicate this tuning/ballistics expertise as it has had had proven results.  Alas, IMOH, that does not always happen - more frequently these bows are shot with whatever shaft/weight combination seems to shoot well and is available, (often combined with very short power strokes), and predictable results.
BTW, I've enjoyed hearing everyone's unique viewpoints.
Dick

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Originally posted by hogdancer:
here is something else to throw in the mix, cherokee scout  nailed it, traditional archers are generally pretty poor shots, if you don't think so pay attention next time you go to a 3-d shoot. When I look around at a shoot I can't help thinking that a large number of the shooters really should not be shooting at live animals. Hopefully they know that and are using other means to hunt but just having fun at a shoot. We need to quit using traditional as an excuse for poor shooting.

You also need to account for the fact that while at the 3-d shoots most of these guys that you don't think belong in the woods shooting at any animal probably aren't going to be taking 30 to 50 yard shots on any animals in the woods and a lot of these shots are common at 3-d shoots.  

Should you size your equipment to your game?  I would try to, but maybe say Mudd for instance can shoot a golf ball at 50 yards every shot and I can only hit one at 20.  Who am I to tell him his equipment isn't good enough?  

The statement was made that Ohio has a #40 draw limit which is correct.  However, Texas has no minimum draw weight requirement, so who's right and if neither then where's the happy medium.

A bad shot is a bad shot no matter what it's shot out of.  I think it's a little  unethical myself to feel that it's ok to substitute practice and shot placement with going up 20 pounds in bow weight so you can blow through a shoulder blade.  How about we practice not hitting the shoulder to start with.

All said, if you've been in the woods any amount of time at all you've probably at one time or another lost an animal and everyone here knows that it can happen even under perfect circumstances.  Don't fool yourself into believing you're more ethical or a better hunter because you've never lost an animal.  Sometimes crap happens.

Like others have said, no matter your thoughts, I'd still hunt with all of ya.  

[Pat B]

Isn't minimal weight in Colorado 35#? If I'm not mistaken, Colorado has some pretty big animals.
  Mike Treadway shot through an elk with one of his 41# bows. I think shot placement, well tuned arrows with scary sharp points and knowing your equipment and being able to shoot well are the keys to success.
  I shoot around 55#@26" and shoot cane or hardwood arrows(600gr to 700gr) with stone or trade points. If anything doesn't work well I don't use it. If I can't hit the kill zone at 20yds with any of it I wouldn't hunt! Everything else is up to chance

[Shawn Leonard]

Dick your last statement does not apply to trad. bows with just low draw weights it applies to all trad bows. I have been to many shoots and have held a trad bow hunt for years and to be honest I would not shoot 70% of most peoples set ups are due to the poor arrow flight they get. That goes for bows from 25# to 100#s. Shawn

[hogdancer]

lots of people on here know lots about arrows and set-ups  and FOC stuff and the mechanics of shooting, but when talking about shooting at game and what works it's folks like RC that I listen to. Guys that put NUMEROUS animals down know what works. This is after all the internet

[SaMbO2]

Ok just talked to my father about it and got the bow out it was about 25# not 30#

[montucky]

Yeah it's all about recovery, bad things can happen to great hunters with the right equipment and the right skills... probably with more frequency than the occasional improperly trained and equipted bowhunter as it just takes too much commitment to do what it takes to even get a shot at a deer...so most people that make that commitment but make a grievous mistake crippling game while bowhunting will not take the experience lightly vs. other segments of hunting community.  ANyway, it's also about mentoring people.  I know as a very recent convert to trad archery I have not exactly had any welcome advice from the local folks and had to basically beg a guy at the local hunting store to help me out - who shoots a longbow occassionally and knew a little and took some time at his workplace to set up the bow and give some some pointers.