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Author Topic: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?  (Read 2227 times)

Offline bowhntr62

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2011, 05:19:00 PM »
I think Hud hit it on the head for a good explanation of why longer bows are more forgiving.I have a recurve that is a 58" 60# @28" draw that stacks maybe 10lbs because I draw 29 1/2 . Then I have a bow that is a 62" 55# @28 and when I draw it I notice no stack it seems to stay close to what the draw weight is and is so smooth to shoot.

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2011, 05:31:00 PM »
it's not just about "stack", it's about the ease of everything from draw, to hold, to release, to follow through that makes longer bows more pleasurable for most folks to shoot over most (but not all!) far shorter bows.  that overall feeling is what i call "stability" - it's a comfortable and forgiving quality that becomes a feeling, and you know when it's there and you know when it's not.
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Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2011, 08:17:00 PM »
I evaluate a bow's stability by looking for perfect arrow flight in adverse conditions.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline Zradix

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2011, 08:39:00 PM »
Thanks for the posts everyone.   :thumbsup:

ProtegeLB...I got to thinking about the question I asked you in my last post during dinner.
I appreciate your answer and understand what you're saying. I was thinking your answer might be simply " because the rules dictate the style of bow" or something along those lines.
Your answer was much more informative. thank you
If some animals are good at hunting and others are suitable for hunting, then the Gods must clearly smile on hunting.~Aristotle

..there's more fun in hunting with the handicap of the bow than there is in hunting with the sureness of the gun.~ F.Bear

Offline AdamH

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2011, 11:41:00 PM »
I look at it as a Tite Rope walker, long on each end so they dont fall off, but really, it's just about length, I can shoot anything well, but love the feel of the long ones ... 66'' and up ...

Offline Bent Rig

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2011, 11:06:00 AM »
" I use the straight-end londbow for the simple reason that it requires a less exacting hold and loose to get the necessary accuracy while hunting , where quick shots must be made from unconventional positions - standing, kneeling or sitting - not the traditional target archer's pose . Also the longbow throws an heavy arrow much better than any recurve bow design , which is necessary for sufficient big game penetration . The longbow is fast , smooth, sturdyand dependable , built to give many years of trouble free service."
"the straight -end longbow gives you speed, stability and cast. It is feather light in the hand and has excellent maneuverability . For all hunting archers , the lonbow with straight -ends is the only one to consider."

                             - Howard Hill -
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Offline Bent Rig

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2011, 11:12:00 AM »
"The long length means less erroe in the trajectory of the arrow . This is simple geometery . The more acute the angle , the more deviation at any given distance . No release is ever perfect , and in bow hunting the release must often be hasty or unorthodox . Consequently , with a longbow , my arrow , though not released perfectly , may still strike the chest of an animal , whereas that same release from a shorter bow could mean a miss - there could be as much as a foot difference at 30 yards."
     
                              - Bob Swinehart -
Paul

Offline Orion

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2011, 11:34:00 AM »
Protege, you got it right, and you explained it clearly as well.   :thumbsup:

Offline Ron LaClair

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2011, 01:45:00 PM »
Some of the analogies favoring longer bows are obviously from people that have never shot a properly designed short bow.

To each his own but to make a fair analysis you really need to experience both sides of the issue. "A short bow is a short bow"... is not necessarily  true. Neither is a long bow a long bow, they all have their idiosyncrasies. (I had to look up the spelling on that one)...   :readit: ...   :D
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Offline RC

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2011, 02:14:00 PM »
A lot of different things come into play for me on this subject.I tend to shoot 66" longbows better than shorter ones at my 27" draw.If the shorter bow has a forward riser you can shorten it some and I`ll hit about the same. Add some mass weight to the riser and you can shorten it even more and I hit about the same.
  What if you take the longer Hill bow and add a little bit of mass weight in the riser on it.Bet it would shoot good.
 Personally in hunting situtations I`m prone to shooting mistakes and lack of form due to being "pumped". I prefer the longer longbow because for ME I shoot it better under pressure.
  There are no perfect bows for everyone just a "best" bow for an individual. Mine is probably not yours.RC

Offline amar911

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2011, 04:21:00 PM »
Every design involves compromises in order to try to find the best for a particular application. Take airplanes for example, which actually relate well to bows in some respects. Heavier airplanes with longer wings and fuselages, and with more dihedral in their lifting surfaces tend to be more aerodynamically stable than lighter planes with shorter wings and fuselages, and with less dihedral. I won't go into all the reasons for these effects, but one of them is moment of inertia associated with the rotating mass of the aircraft, which has also been described here by others as it relates to bows and tight rope walking poles. The aerodynamically stable planes resist departure from the current flight regime and will tend to return to that flight regime in the event there is a sudden force that causes a deviation. That stable design is great for planes that are in cruise for long periods of time, but it is a terrible design for planes that need to be maneuverable and quick. Similar design factors exist for guns and bows. A benchrest rifle with a long, very heavy barrel is great for shooting off a fixed rest at a stationary target, but it would be terrible for most deer hunting situations. For most hunting situations, a gun that is lighter, more maneuverable, quicker, and shorter is a much better weapon to use.

Who wants to be shooting the most accurate, most stable bow possible while hunting? I sure don't!! That would be a very long, very heavy mass, very light poundage bow with all sorts of stabilizers and wrist straps, and definitely adjustable sights. I would have to stand with the bow completely vertical (a bubble level would help with that) and have exactly the same body position as I had practiced from thousands of times before. Obviously, none of us want to, or even can, hunt like that. So now we are talking compromise. The compromises will be shorter bows, less mass, and higher poundages.

To make short bows (58 inches and less) more stable and create a geometry that will produce a lower string/tip angle at longer draw lengths, a more forward, deflexed riser is helpful. So is the reflex/deflex or recurve tip limb design. With more recent design and material advances, we can have short bows with smooth draw and good shooting characteristics, while also getting the handiness, quickness and maneuverability that short bows with less rotational stability provide. That is why Ron can talk about how good his Shrew bows shoot, even in the shorter lengths (down to 52"). Shrew makes the Model T for those who want the longer target bows that can still be used for hunting, but the shorter Shrew bows tend to be better for more hunting situations. If you don't believe me (or Ron), then try one out and see for yourself. I did, and it is hard to go back to my dozens of wonderful, longer bows when I head to the hunting camp. Of course, there are other good short bows besides the Shrews. The Shrews just happen to be some of the best and the most well known. If you can locate one of Big Jim's Thunderchild bows, or a Treadway Black Swamp, or one of the short Black Swans or another top quality short bow of modern design, try one of those to see what one feels like. Remember though that all short bows are not created equal.

Allan
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Offline GrayRhino

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2011, 08:02:00 PM »
Well said Allan.  :thumbsup:
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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2011, 12:42:00 AM »
I think Rob has pretty much given a practical explanation and my experience....I have found that for my 29 inch draw, I can more consistently /comfortably shoot with a longer bow if it is Hill-style.  I do however dislike the string follow with the longer bows.  

With the R/D bows I "feel" that a 64-66"er is best all around length for me.  The last bow I made was a 52@64 and the one I build for my son, coming from the same form was 50@68". They both shot very well, each having its own unique characteristic but I could more consistently shoot the 64 (maybe because it was mine and I shot it tons more)  :saywhat:  

I need to say that my opinion/preference does not depend on a scientific study.  Other than trying out some of the "shorties" of recent years at the Trad Expo in Kzoo (such as the ones that Ron makes)I have not given them much of a chance in my comparison over the years.  I am biased and just "assume" they will have too much finger pinch, or that they will uncomfortably stack at my draw and naturally stay away from the short bows. Yes, I know that is ignorance...   ;)  

Hmmm...guess I have not helped too much   :dunno:

Good luck y'all!

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2011, 01:48:00 AM »
Long years ago talking with Ron on the phone, I said that longbows were going to get more and more radical and shorter and shorter until it will be something we have never seen before.  Ron said "Not necessarily".  Well look at one Ron is selling today, really accurate bows that we have never seen before.  Although we do not have any of his bows, I can attest to the fact that a properly made hybrid that is 54" long can shoot fast and feel much longer and feel very much more stable than its 54" length.  A short for ones draw Hill style quite often is not as forgiving as these "properly designed" short bows. something I was rather surprised to learn first hand.  On the other side, I picked up a 68" Pete George, which is long for my 26&1/4" draw. Without a doubt I am more accurate with it than I am with my 64" Hill style bows, there may be some other influences, but I am also more consistent with my other 68" longbow. One is left handed and the other right so it seems that form glitches are not the issue.  I have shorter Robertsons that are also extremely accurate, slight R/D.  Forgiveness has a lot to do with design, no matter how we look at it.

Offline HATCHCHASER

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2011, 12:06:00 PM »
So what happens when you take all of the good characteristics of a properly designed "short" longbow and combine them with all of the characteristics of a "long" d-style longbow.

 Say a 68" mild r/d longbow with a forward handle and slim deep cored limbs.  Make the riser heavy for the overall weight of the bow.  Maybe phenolic riser with a bow-bolt.  Bamboo or foam cores with black glass or carbon back.  Man I'm getting carried away but I'd buy one.   :saywhat:
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Offline Ron LaClair

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2011, 12:34:00 PM »
Quote
So what happens when you take all of the good characteristics of a properly designed "short" longbow and combine them with all of the characteristics of a "long" d-style longbow.

Say a 68" mild r/d longbow with a forward handle and slim deep cored limbs. Make the riser heavy for the overall weight of the bow. Maybe phenolic riser with a bow-bolt. Bamboo or foam cores with black glass or carbon back. Man I'm getting carried away but I'd buy one.  
Sounds like the makings for a good "target" longbow..     :archer2:

     

   
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Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2011, 12:50:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HATCHCHASER:
So what happens when you take all of the good characteristics of a properly designed "short" longbow and combine them with all of the characteristics of a "long" d-style longbow.

 Say a 68" mild r/d longbow with a forward handle and slim deep cored limbs.  Make the riser heavy for the overall weight of the bow.  Maybe phenolic riser with a bow-bolt.  Bamboo or foam cores with black glass or carbon back.  Man I'm getting carried away but I'd buy one.    :saywhat:  
I would forget about the solid phenolic riser and the foam core. I know of too many problems with the foam core to use it myself. It is very brittle and seem to have a limited lifespan. I do however use phenolic, but wouldn't want my entire riser to be made of it as I like my fadeouts to be natural materials...as I feel they "blend" in better with the natural materials of the bow limb's core.

That said, taken your design request, I believe the longer r/d bow will be more stable than the shorter bow. (Unless one goes to insane extremes).
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline Bowwild

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2011, 01:07:00 PM »
Interesting discussion.  I too have always heard all else equal the longer bow will be more tolerant of form differences from shot to shot and produce a tighter group -- thus less variation in the shot due to the archer's execution.

I've always figured it was due to resistance to movement at release (overcoming inertia) of the longer limbs. Sort of like a vertical stabilizer.  

Grayrhino, I appreciate your explanation as it makes a lot of sense to me.  

Of course there are things that affect the bow's performance for a particular archer that are unrelated to this discussion. For instance, the design of the limb.  I was advised by a long-term bowyer that certain bow types (he named Howatt) I should stay away from because the limb is better suited for a longer draw in terms of getting the most out of it. Since I don't know whether to capitalize "bowyer" or not, I'm uninclined to argue with one.

With my 58" draw I shoot 56"-62" bows.  Since nearly all of them are different makes and models I can't make much of a comparison.  

I agree with the statement made by some above that a shooting machine (archery-with very nice form) can likely shoot long and short equally well. So, an archer with proper and consistent form will have difficulty telling the difference as revealed by group size.

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2011, 01:11:00 PM »
Hatchchaser described the bow, (add a radiused riser and minus the phenolic, minus the foam core and add a bammboo core,and add a tiller scheme that has the back narrower than the belly) a custom Ballenger, that I gave to a friend last year.  Pretty quick, nice balance, no stack, no kick, quiet, and the most accurate longbow I have ever seen.  I did not give it to him because I did not like it, I gave it to him because I thought it was a great bow, it fit him perfect and I knew he would get good use out of it.

Offline HATCHCHASER

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Re: What is it about longer bows that makes them forgiving?
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2011, 04:47:00 PM »
I would prefer an all wood riser with bamboo cores and black glass.  I have had foam cores and carbon backed bows and I prefer bamboo or actionwood/actionboo and black glass.  In my experience bows with black glass seem to shoot a little sweeter "that's another discussion". Phenolic would make the heaviest riser for a design and supposedly a heavy riser and light limbs makes a bow with the best manors.  I prefer a nice hardwood riser.

 I was just saying if we made a bow with all of the most "forgiving" characteristics shouldn't it be the most forgiving bow.  No bow is the best for all situations that is why we need more than one.   :goldtooth:  

I think all things being equal, in the hands of a skilled archer "not me", that T-model shrew would be more accurate than the Super-Shrew or Shrew Classic.  Each bow definitely has it's place.  YMMV. I bet that T-model is sweet.
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