Internally footed cedars?

[oldbohntr]

Maybe this one's been discussed before, but I'm only recently involved with these threads, so I'll bring it up anyway.  Has anyone here done much with internally footed wood arrows?   I became a believer in increased FOC while experimenting with carbons the last couple of years. Now wanting to get back to woods and have loads of good old Acme cedars and some hardwoods, so now playing with those.  Not footing my own shafts yet.  Am not impressed with simply extending more mass from the same old taper, so woody weights don't grab me(altho they may actually work ok.)  

At first look, the idea of drilling out the centerline of the shaft and inserting a steel/brass rod seemed like kind of a clean, elegant solution.  Bought a kit from 3R, and it just doesn't quite get there.  The guide bushing would be more accurate if the drill guide hole were longer and smaller diameter.  The supplied bit is so short that you can barely get 2" hole depth....that's less than 60 grains of brass rod.  But, a couple of trial efforts seemed promising, so I bought a 12" 9/64" diameter bit!

[oldbohntr]

Guess I ran out of space, so continuing here.  So, anyway, I have this bit that is long enough to-well, whatever-and calculated what was necessary to end up with a 4" hole depth.  I took two leftovers from my best hunting arrows from the old cedar days, so as to have a standard of comparison. I started with 27-3/4" cedars that weighed right at 600 grains, with a 160 gr FP.  Cutting off the taper(so they did get about 3/4" shorter)I drilled a 4" hole on the centerline (hopefully!)and epoxied in a brass rod weighing a little over 100 gr.   I'm waiting for the epoxy to completely set, but when loosely assembled, the FOC increased from 13.5% to 19.8%!!  That's just more than I expected.....  

Does anyone else here have any experience with these?  Winners? Losers? Why?  

My gut feeling is that eccentricity/variation/inaccuracy of the hole that is basically on the centerline of the shaft is relatively unimportant when compared with such things as broadhead alignment, nock alignment, shaft straightness, and spine(when it comes to accuracy.)  But, I'd sure like to hear from others who've tried it.

[Jack Skinner]

I have used it alot on poplar shafts. But I have been OK with only 50 to 80grs, have not needed 100grs. I could not get longer drilled holes straight, seemed like they always ended up going out the side of the shaft. Would like to try it with longer bit and drill press. I tried a larger hole to get larger diameter materal for more weight and it didnt work for me. There wasnt enought wood left around the brass and all of the shafts broke at the end of the brass, to weak. Overall I really like the internal footing for upping gr weight and FOC as a secondary effect. I have had some difficulty at times getting shafts to spin true with the footings but overal as you say get your hole straight and no issues.

[Rob DiStefano]

nail footing a woodie adds up front weight, but more importantly (for me) it greatly stiffens up the area just behind the point, where breakage typically occurs.  sometimes i don't want to add weight to the front and will use bamboo or carbon fiber instead of iron.

i have nail footed dozens and dozens of woodies.  as with most any crafting project, there is learning curve of sorts.  

for best results, drill the footing hole before tapering the shaft.  

the shaft MUST fit reasonably tight into the jig - use masking tape wrapped around the shaft to insure this snug fit.  

drill slowly and pull out the bit frequently to extract the dust.  there's a practical length of perhaps 3" at best for drilling depth - going further can be dicey.  

for the most part i add 60 grains of iron nail, glued in with slow set epoxy.  i seat the nail about 1/8" below the end of the shaft in order to better trim off the point taper to best fit the glue-on point.

[leatherneck]

Rob, what size nails are you using?

[SouthShoreRat]

You could try using a wood lathe as the drilling tool. You would need to build a jig to support the shafts full length. The only real issue I see is if you take the weight too far up inside the shaft you will stiffen it even though you are adding weight.

[Rob DiStefano]

the nail jig uses a 9/32" bit and any 1/8" or so diameter iron nail will work fine.

you don't need or want to use a wood lathe - that's a heckuva lotta trouble for nothing and may not work all that well.  the nail jig works just fine if you do your part, as i've outlined above.

[leatherneck]

Thanks.  

[oldbohntr]

Well, I don't know that I NEED to go 4" deep.  I know the point weight that I desire to use is 150-190 grains, and these first attempts with the long bit were 1)to see if it wanders out the side of the shaft, and 2)to see how it flies.  

My son's made up some with the short bit that came with the jig, free-handing the holes when the guide bushing bottomed him out.  Was less than 3" deep.  They shot ok for him, and so he shot a few of them into a hard stump....just to see if it strengthened the shaft behind the point.  58# bow, less than 20 yd - 4 or 5 shots, a couple bent very slightly right behind the point, and he was able to straighten them and then shot them into it again.  Not that they were intact internally, but none broke.  That was an eye-opener for me.  This won't make cedar almost indestructible like the hardwoods, but it does seem to improve it.

If I knew a machinist who'd work for nothing(!), I'd have a more accurate jig made.  A longer and smaller diameter guide bushing hole would tighten the concentricity of the hole and how closely it approximates the centerline of the shaft.  Who knows how much those things affect flight or accuracy?  

The only test I can think of is to find out whether it can be tuned to bare shaft well, and what spine that requires.  Has anyone found that it significantly affects tuning -that is, did it change the spine by very much?

Appreciate everyone's thoughts so far.

[Shawn Leonard]

Tom, I have used the hit inserts of 100 grains and drilled out as you said, actually had my future son in law do it as he is a machinist, my trys resulted in less than a perfect spinning shaft always got some wobble. The ones he did were perfect. Shawn

[ckanous]

I also have been messing with this on some of my arrows. I had made a jig out of wood but tried to go to deep and would start to run out the side. Gonna get the jig or take the time to make a good one this go around.

[Jack Skinner]

Your question on spine. I shoot 190gr/200gr points/broadheads. When I began adding 50-80grs of lead to the front internally effectively making my points/broadheads 250 or so grains, I also added about 3-5lbs of spine to my shafts. They have been flying great out of my selfbows. I added more spine because according to my spine tester adding the weight upfront was dropping the spine on my shafts. I add the weight up front looking for total arrow weight in the 650gr area for my poplar shafts, increase in strength and FOC were good secondary results.

Side note I have gone to hardwood footings and found that to be an exceptional method of adding total weight to poplar shafts as well as strength and FOC.

[oldbohntr]

Rob, I think you mis-spoke there.  To use a 1/8" rod you would want a 9/64" bit, not 9/32"!  Maybe you did mean that,but there ain't a lot of wood left around a 9/32" hole!    

Jack, thanks for that.  I suspected stiffening the final few inches of shaft would stiffen it....maybe a little like shortening the shaft.  I understand hardwood footing is the truly elegant way to do the same thing.  I'm not going to get to that myself for a while.  This seemed like it might be a bit quicker and easier.  

Yeah, I'm sure the holes I'm drilling are far from perfect.  Feeding the bit slowly might allow it to wander a bit less, but I think reducing the oversize hole in the guide bushing and making it longer is the best way to make this idea better.  Probably not cost effective for anyone to make, so I guess my idea is to figure out if it is effective up to a point(hole depth), or not worth pursuing at all.    

Anyway, thanks to all for the responses.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by oldbohntr:
Rob, I think you mis-spoke there.  To use a 1/8" rod you would want a 9/64" bit, not 9/32"!  Maybe you did mean that,but there ain't a lot of wood left around a 9/32" hole!...

oops, my bad - you are correct!

[Bud B.]

You guys have any photos of the jigs you're using?

[Rob DiStefano]

get it at 3rivers ...
 http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=5603X

[Jack Skinner]

Here you go Bud B.
A drill with the 9/64 bit talked about above is used to drill hole free hand.
 
I cant remember is this was one of the arrows I tried to drill out a larger hole or not but here is the hole in the front of the shaft this was an hardwood footed shaft.
 
lead or brass added and epoxied or superglued into hole
 

OLDBOHNTR
I have found the opposite effect. Adding weight to the front lowers spine as in making your arrow shaft longer. It has not increased the spine of my shafts, so I have had to start with an arrow shaft at least 5lbs heavier in spine when using internal and or external footings. Out of my 60lb selfbows I have found that a shaft in the 60-65lb spine range shoots well. My spine tester spines at 26" centers and I shoot a 28.5 to 29.5 inch shaft. When internally or externally footing shafts I go to a 70-75lb spine shaft. Once I have footed the shaft it drops into the 60-65lb range my selfbows like and with the FOC they seem to fly better. Hope that made sense.

[Swamp Yankee]

Interesting thread.  I have no experience with footing shafts, but I'm just wondering why you don't use lead solder instead of steel or brass?  It's heavier so you need less, and softer so less likely to stiffen the shaft.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Swamp Yankee:
Interesting thread.  I have no experience with footing shafts, but I'm just wondering why you don't use lead solder instead of steel or brass?  It's heavier so you need less, and softer so less likely to stiffen the shaft.

because i want to stiffen/strengthen just behind the point, where it'll typically break when hitting something really hard ... that plus the added front end weight.

[oldbohntr]

Yes, that does make sense.  I appreciate all the feedback, guys.  Thanks.
Tom