Skinny fast flight strings W/padded loops on non fast flight bows?

[daniel boon]

i cannot comment, as i have not tried it myself , but i did ask the same question couple of days ago (ANYONE USE FF STRINGS ON NON FF BOW'S)?  and i got crucified with comments like  HELP ME HERE- WHY WOULD YOU EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION.  from rob ,and others .So i am glad of this thread being revived, it answers my curiosity on this subject.i am pleased to know that i am not that STUPID for asking the question , as i was made to feel. THANKS to ALL THE GREAT PEOPLE THAT TRY TO HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND when you dont know something!!!!

[Stone Knife]

 Excuse me, but I didn’t see this as an opinion question.  

the answer that you didn't want to hear was not an opinion but the safety concern and not wanting anyone to get injured....†

[AkDan]

I do have a hairline crack on a bob lee signature that I tried using d97 on.  I am not sure if it string related or not.  It is around the limb bolts on the underside.   I am pretty careful about not overtightening things so I know thats not it.  The only other thing I can think of is the string.....who knows.

[Covey]

Originally posted by Blackstick:
Excuse me, but I didn’t see this as an opinion question. The question was directed to people who have tried it.

How’s it going?

I don’t want to come across as testy here, but I am also interested in results that other members have had and how they did it.

Go ahead and shoot me.

ABSOLUTELY!!!
 
I know of a feller that padded the loops on an old Shakespeare.. been shooting that thing for a couple years with no problems. like has been said before not promoting, just reporting!

Jason

[wingnut]

We provide high performance non stretch strings with every bow we ship.  That includes selfbows.

Yes we reenforce the tips overlays to prevent cut through by the material.

These strings are faster and quieter on all bows but if the bow is not designed for it you risk ruining the bow.

That's your call I guess.

Mike

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Blackstick:
Excuse me, but I didn’t see this as an opinion question. The question was directed to people who have tried it.

How’s it going?

I don’t want to come across as testy here, but I am also interested in results that other members have had and how they did it.

Go ahead and shoot me.

with questions such as yours, there is always the possibility that such actions - using old wood/glass laminated bows with hmpe string fiber - is acceptable.  it's not.  in fact, it's plain outright stupid.  someone had to say it or else your simple question might be construed as something that some clueless person should try since someone somewhere is actually doing it.

let me see how clear i can make this, in order to hopefully prevent bows from blowing up (I HAVE WITNESSED THIS MORE THAN ONCE, it's not a pretty sight!), or folks getting seriously hurt or killed ....

 

this does NOT include self bows!  they are, for the most part, given dispensation and are, for the most part, safe to use hmpe bowstrings.

you wanna use hmpe on old bows?  feeling lucky?

[Shawn Leonard]

Rob, your funny!! You just don't get it do ya? Shawn

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Rob, your funny!! You just don't get it do ya? Shawn

don't i? - you have a pm .....

[Rob DiStefano]

after a pm conversation with mike (wingnut) i've reopened this thread.

let me tell ya'll why i'm dead set against mixing hmpe and old wood/glass bows that aren't built to handle such ultra high tensile strength fiber.  

i don't wanna see good folk get hurt or worse.

i've witnessed two old bows blow, used by other archers, that were loaded with hmpe strings. one top limb tip flipped 20 yards and into the excelsior bales used for the indoor range butts. one guy was next to me on the shooting line, to my right, when the limb nearly sheared in half with a huge BANG!

i have also been on the same shooting line with archers in the early 70's using kevlar strings on their hoyt and golden eagle target recurves, and in more than a few instances those strings resulted in fragmented limbs.  have you ever been present when a bow limb shrapnels?  it will scare the living beejeesus outta you, i promise.  don't let that happen to you, be wise, be safe, not sorry.

so, IF you have been using hmpe on yer old bow, think of this as a ticking time bomb.  and if ya don't believe me, fine, not gonna be my problem or trad gang's problem cause very clearly we're both saying ...

 

[Shawn Leonard]

Thanks Rob, I think this will help people make an informed decision. Good or bad, it actually may prevent people from trying this. I agree I would hate to see anyone get hurt doing anything archery related! Shawn

[wingnut]

Thanks Rob for reopenning this thread.

I asked this question on another forum this morning looking for myth buster or bow buster information.

In a matter of minutes I had 10 broken bows attributed to use of FF.

A bit of info provided that made a lot of sense was that bow like us get brittle with age.  Old laminations, fiberglass, overlays and glues breakdown over time.  This being said there are bows out there that will shoot for the rest of our lives.  But some have been effected.  

No one will argue that the new strings put more stress on the bow and if yours is one of the ones on the downside of life, well that stress will probably tip it over the edge.

So there is no reason to endanger a piece of history for a couple of fps not to mention an eye or worse.

I'll agree now with Rob and say it's not worth it.

Mike

[vintage-bears]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
i have a loving family, i have good friends, i don't need to be maimed or dead.  messing with hmpe bowstrings and old glass/wood lam bows is plain nuts.    

             

Ditto...

[LBR]

No one will argue that the new strings put more stress on the bow...  

I won't argue it, but I will question it.  I have yet to see any evidence of this, or a viable explanation as to why.

My thoughts are along these lines.  

It's a known fact that HMPE strings greatly reduce hand shock, especially in bows that have noticeable hand shock.

What is hand shock?  It's wasted energy resonating down the limbs to the riser and into the shooter's hand.  If you have a string that reduces this wasted energy (evidently by imparting it into the arrow), how can that be "harder" on the bow?  I may be looking at this all wrong, but it would seem to me that a string that increases hand shock would be increasing the wear and tear on the bow.

I've broken several bows over the years, and personally know folks that have broken bows.  I don't know of even one where the failure could be contributed to the string--almost all of them had dacron strings on them to begin with.

The only damage I've seen done by a "Fast Flight" string was, as mentioned, a tiny (non-padded loop) string on an old bow that didn't have the string grooves cut at the proper angle, using the old (and very abrasive) "Fast Flight" material.  I've seen this twice, in totally unrelated cases.

It seems that when a bow fails, if it has a "Fast Flight" string on it, the string automatically gets the blame.  If it has a dacron string on it, something else gets the blame.

I can't say that it is safe to shoot a "Fast Flight" string on a "non-Fast Flight" bow, but I've yet to experience anything that says you can't do it safely, as long as the string is properly made.

I have to go on my own experiences, because on the w.w.w. I've seen everything from flemish strings being blamed for twisted limbs to warranties voided over using a dacron string, and pretty much everything in-between.

I'm still looking for answers to this one--solid answers.  I am NOT a proponent of really tiny strings--IMO they aren't nearly as safe as a moderate strand count--so I've got no agenda here, other than just trying to learn more.

So......FWIW, in my opinion the jury is still out on this one.  

Oh yeah...I don't recommend doing it--I much rather be safe than sorry.  I am a big proponent of using HMPE materials on bows rated for it, for the many benefits it offers.

[Rob DiStefano]

chad,

imho high tensile hmpe strings, by and of themselves, do not inhibit "hand shock".  i've proved that to myself with my own tests. there are other issues involved, some i understand and some i still don't.  but ....

more importantly, whether it does that or not has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand - hmpe strings used on old bows.  i've had first hand experience in that matter and i know that the two components are bad mojo.  

if you are sceptical and a "show me to believe" kinda person, and refuse to have the faith that i and others have seen what hmpe can do to old bows, well, certainly your call.  

but let's be clear about this so that your statements will carry no weight to the clueless of the trad archery world,  as some poor fools will interpret your scepticism as good enuf to use hmpe and old bows.  best of luck of luck to those that use the two together, 'cause man you are gonna need it.  remember what you read here at trad gang in this thread, 'cause i promise not to holler "i told you so!".

[LBR]

On the hand shock...my bow arm elbow is very sensitive to shock.  I own a couple of bows that I will not shoot with dacron strings, due to the hand shock--repetitive shooting with them tears up my elbow.  I've won the "Howard Hill"--TWICE--with one of them, and I won the TN Classic "Selfbow Challenge" with the other--after putting Dynaflight strings on them.  Not exactly scientific, but my elbow won't lie to me.  Dunno what else it could have been, because the string is all I changed, and I made the strings.  I've had countless reports of folks telling me they had the same experience.  Based on that, it steers me into thinking...does it not stand to reason that less shock should equal less wear and tear on the bow?  I can't say it does or doesn't--I'm asking, not telling.

I can't honestly say whether HMPE materials are "hard" on old bows or not, as I have no solid proof either way.  I have limited experience and lots of opinions, most of which sway one way, but no proof to verify it.  

I've searched for this proof for years, just like I've looked for evidence to back claims that HMPE materials will shorten the life of any bow, that they are inherently noisier, etc.  I get lots of opinion, but nothing I can verify.  

I thought I was pretty clear on where I stand with old bows and HMPE strings.  The last statement of my previous post:

 

 Oh yeah...I don't recommend doing it--I much rather be safe than sorry. I am a big proponent of using HMPE materials  on bows rated for it , for the many benefits it offers.

A question,  Do the number of twists in a padded fast flight or other new string have an effect of beating up a bow less than say a padded string without as many twists needed to get it to the proper length?  I have seen a case where a fastflight was channeling into a bamboo longbow a bit, but I think that was more of a hard material and lack of wax issue.

[wingnut]

Chad,

I know you sell strings but to provide encouragement to the folks wanting to do this is just not good business.  Heck sell them B50 stings for the old bows.  The worst bow for hand shock I ever shot was the traveling bear bow.  I won't have dreamed at putting a high performancs string on it to calm it down if it had a 10% chance of shortening it's life.  Some bows have a lot of handshock. .  .period.

We have sited 12 cases where these strings were used on older bows that self destructed in a few shots.  Some quite spectacularly. I guess that doesn't provide enough data to make an informed decision for some folks but for me it just doesn't make sense to risk the bows life or someone elses.

Mike

[redant 60/65]

I'm kinda with Wingnut on this one. Why beat a old horse to dead again. If there's a chance that FF type string could damage your bow even a small chance don't do it. get another bow that is recommended for fast flight type strings. The gain is just not big enough,on older bows.

[AdamH]

Well said Chad ... Oh Yeah, Love Your Strings !!!

[LBR]

I know you sell strings but to provide encouragement to the folks wanting to do this is just not good business.

Neither is crediting me with things I never said or implied.  Once again, from my original (and completely unaltered) post:

 "Oh yeah...I don't recommend doing it--I much rather be safe than sorry."

I personally know of at least two (glass, laminated) bows that self-destructed the first time they were drawn back.  I have first-hand knowledge of a bunch more that "blew up" and they had never had anything other than a dacron string on them.

I'm not posting to sell strings--I'm staying plenty busy, thanks.  I'm posting to see if there is any verifiable proof to back the opinions.  I like to get to the bottom of things.  If I didn't, then I'd believe that dacron strings caused bows to fail and flemish strings caused twisted limbs.

Need more proof?  Do a search on my posts.  I won't even go as far as recommending or using "skinny" HMPE strings (as noted in the title of the thread) on bows made to accept HMPE materials, much less on bows not made for them.


Once again, is it worth the risk?  Not to me.  I only have 2 non-FF bows in my stable, and one of those hasn't been shot since I got it--and likely never will be.  The other will never have anything other than a dacron string on it.  Want to guess why?

Now why would I be "pushing" something I won't use myself?  Simple answer, I won't.  That's not the way I do business.  Never have, never will.

I never thought that just asking for some simple facts would stir up a ruckus.  I'm done with it.