Spine-Spine- Spine and the quick recovery from paradox w/carbons

[Shawn Leonard]

We hear it all the time and people talk about perfect arrow flight and foc and the likes. I actually give people a lot of recommendations and most of the time I am darn close, but a lot of people think I recommend arrows that are weak for peoples set up. I am here to say that things are not always as they appear. I have been playing with carbons for a long time and have found some interesting things, the one that stands out is that carbon recovers from paradox way quicker than wood or aluminum and fiberglass. That is why I make the suggestions I do. For example I am shooting .600 spine arrows cut to 29.5"s out of a high performance recurve that is 43#s at my draw, not unusual people say until they find out I am shooting anywhere from 175 to 190 up front and gettin great arrow flight, and trust me I know good arrow flight. I guess why I posted this is I am wondering who else notices this and I am bored     , it just can't be me. I posted that set-up some where else and guys said I could not shoot more than 100-125 grain heads and get good flight. Carbons because of that quick recovery are a different animal than the other stuff we use as arrows. Shawn

[rjackson]

Shawn you absolutly correct.I have found the same to be true. I shoot 500 spine with 50gr insert and 200gr BH out of 54pound morrison  54 pound Tall Tines and 55 pound KWYK STYK and 56 pound pronghorn. 28 inch draw. They fly like darts..We are on the same page,Randy

[Shawn Leonard]

Yup, I can shoot 500 spine with good results from 175-250 out of my same RER 54#s at my draw cut to 29.5"s and I draw 28.75"s, getting weak at 250 but still good flight. Shawn

[CRS]

I agree, I found the carbons to tune best when they are supposedly too soft for common wisdom.

I always start light, it is easier to increase  dynamic spine than decrease.

I know that extreme FOC is all the rage, but I strive for 145-175gr up front.

[steadman]

So Shawn, I am new to the carbon thing. I shoot a mohawk longbow 59#@28 and I draw 28". i shoot the gt 55/75 at 29 3/4 with 250 up front. They fly great, I'm not big on bareshaft, but with big bh fly awesome. Then I switch to some cx heritage 250 with 250 up front(which are supposed to be stiffer) and they fly weak out of my bow (fish tail) These are the things that drive me crazy with carbons. I'd love to go with the cx because they give me the weight I want without the tubes and stuff. What do you think?

[daniel boon]

been trying 55-75's out of my 51#@29" Silvertip, i draw 28" no good whatever i try .35-55 @28",arrow 30" long ,100gr insert 125-150gr points like darts.

[b44mag]

this was a great read i need to get some heavy tips the heaviest tips around here are 150s im new and you guys got the info and answers
thanks

[Eugene Slagle]

I'm shooting Gold Tip 35/55 Traditionals out of a 49# & 47# at my 27" draw recurves, 125gr. points, 22gr. inserts, 12gr. 1" aluminum footings, & 5" feathers.

I guess I was smart & lucky at the same time because I kept them long to see their flight before cutting & with the weight I have set up front they fly perfect for me, cept for that occasional       release.

[katman]

steadman, the cx with a higher gpi will be heavier thus be weaker at the same length, diameter is similar so no center shot change.

Shawn, agree seems less spine is required but as you know center shot of bow, individual release and grip play a roll as well as arrow length and pile weight.

[SS Snuffer]

Next time I'll try 600's
my draw is 28"
100gr. brass insert and 125 gr tips
29 1/2" arrow

[Shawn Leonard]

Eugene your right, if you cut them to 28"s you would need all of 225 up front to get good flight. I will also say less spine is not rquired with alumninum and wood, but as I said carbon reacts way faster than them. Snuffer go to the .600s and you can go down to 175-190 and if ya cut it down to 29"s or a tad less you will be able to shoot those 225 stingers. Shawn

[Bowmania]

Shawn,  I'm shooting 50 lbs at 29 and using a .600 with 285 up front.  I could also get .500 and .400 to fly straight.  They just wouldn't shoot where I was looking.  I tried the .600's out of frustration.  Using a 160 snuffer and 125 adaper I could believe they were flying and going where I looked.  So I shot them through paper on a calm day.  From 12 feet to 20 yards I got a good rip.  My riser is not cut to center so this may have something to do with it.

[xtrema312]

I find carbons to do some odd stuff when tuning with center cut and shaft overhang length.  The big one for me is that cut past center recurves like weaker spine than my cut out from center hybrid LB’s.  I shot a shaft size down in the recurves to get them to shoot right. Common info says the farther to or past center a bow is cut the stiffer your arrow needs to be.  It just doesn’t work that way for me with carbons.

I would challenge those shooting real light spine carbons with high FOC who think they are getting great arrow flight to double check that by shooting paper.  Some of my arrow set-up I thought flew great were flying 1-2” out of line out to 20 yd.  They would make the same rip in the paper all the way with no correction.  This appears to the eye to be great wobble free flight.  It is wobble free, but not great because it is not straight.  You can’t see it by eye and a bare shaft hits right in the group at long range, but the paper shows a different story. My broadheads even shot real well.  Out of line flight will not help in penetration.

[BowMIke]

Shawn, I am shooting easton St Epic 600's with aluminum insert and 125 grain points out of Morrison Shawnee's from 40  lbs to 50 lbs and they are fast and shoot great.
I also shoot Beman mfx classic 500's with 100 grain brass insert and 125 grain points and have good flight from 47 lbs to 54 lbs out of the Shawnees.
(My arrow length is 29").
I plan to hunt with Beman mfx classic 400's with 100 grain brass inserts and 202 grain Centaur Big Game Heads wit 48 to 54 lb Shawnees this fall.(should weigh 627 grains). This ought to be a great hunting arrow set up.

[joe skipp]

I shoot Arrow Dynamic Trad Lites(spine out 35/55) from all my recurves. Groves is 57# and Kempf is 58# at 27". I draw a true 27" and cut my AD's 28.5".

Installed a 100 grain brass insert, 30 gr BHA and shoot both 125 Zwickeys and 160 Snuffers. Do the math for my FOC...they fly sweet out to 60 yds.

Also played around with Gold Tip 35/55 cut 29". Threw in some heavy weed whacker wire, standard insert, 30 gr BHA and 125 gr field pt...great flight. I also shoot 2117's out of all my bows with great flight.

[snag]

Never experienced this with carbon..? I used to shoot CE Heritage 250's (equivalent spine of 84.5#) out of a 55#@28" center cut recurve. The shafts bareshafted great cut to 29.25" and 225gr up front. When I tried to load up the front more they went weak. I don't see how an arrow with a low spine weight, compared to the tip weight and bow poundage, could recover properly. Just doesn't make sense. A weak shaft and tip combo is a weak shaft.

[Stone Knife]

Shawn you have never steered me wrong with carbons. I'm shooting a .500 spine out of my Titan I'm pulling around 45# the arrow is cut to 29.75 with a 50 gr brass insert and a 145 gr point. I am using vanes and get blow right through a deer arrow flight, that's all the proof I need for quick arrow recovery.

[illianabowhntr67]

Good info.Gonna try some .600's with my 45# kodiak hunter.I'm currently shooting .500 easton power flights with 100grn brass inserts and 125grn tips cut 29.5" I draw 27in seems arrows fly good for me.

[Shawn Leonard]

Paper tuning is very hard to do with a trad bow, you need perfect release to do it. That is why people use OL's bareshaft method. Snag, that is my point, carbons react differently than other materials. I also know that when you tune with field points you want a slighty weak arrow as the broadhead stiffens them a bit. I just am going but what works for me and what I see other guys shooting and than have them try a lighter spine and flight almost always improves as long as you don't get too crazy. Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

Ryan, try a 150 cut to 29.5"s and that big broadhead, although I will say it may be a tad too weak! Shawn