TBM's "King of the Ring" ... so far anyway.

[Mr.Magoo]

I haven't seen the new TBM, but I decided to look through my old issues to see how the bows in the "bow test" section were actually stacking-up to each other.

I was surprised to see the Predator recurve was the fastest so far at 193 fps (finger release).  The A&H ACS-CX is tied with the Morrison Shawnee Arapaho at 192 fps for second place.

However, I really liked the fact that the Bob Lee recurve (that Rodney Dangerfield of bows, which I bought used for $250), with its maple limb cores was only 4fps behind the A&H ACS-CX.

In fact, with only a couple of exceptions, all the bows are very close to each other.

[Morning Star]

Really, all bows same exact specs, drawn to the same length and same weight arrows, etc?

[NorthShoreLB]

I think they use a 9gr per # formula, wich makes different poundage bows perfom as if they are the same.

[mikecc]

It's a proven fact that bows will perform very differently as arrow weights go up. At 10 grns per pound the adcock would pull ahead of the others. Some bows will shoot light arrows faster than others such as the DAS and warf bows while others will shoot heavier arrows much faster than other bows. I have several top shelf recurves and some handmade hybrid longbows that I have tested. At 9 grns a pound like the TBM tests alot of the bows are the same speedwise but if I shoot a 10-12 grn per pound arrow out of all the bows the hybrid longbows will shoot faster. Mike

[Jason Jelinek]

Actually the A&H ACS bow is the king at 84% efficiency, the fps doesn't matter because the draw weight and force draw curve distort the speed.  The efficiency is the key.

Jason

[vermonster13]

Finger release is also very dependent on the shooter. Differences in grip can make the same shooter shoot a bow that would be faster from a machine slower. That's one of the reasons to match a bow to your style more than what the numbers from tests say. It may shoot great for one person and not for you.

[Mr.Magoo]

First, we must assume it's a fair test.  The bows aren't all the exact same draw weight, but they're close (all being around 50#@28 +/- a couple pounds).  The arrows are kept at 9gpp to even the field.

The whole "proven fact" of bows shooting heavier arrows better is just a old wives tale.  If it's faster at 6gpp it's faster at 12gpp.

As for efficiency, I noticed that number too.  Not quite sure why a more "efficient" bow would shoot slower at the same gpp (frankly, it shouldn't) ... but saying "fps doesn't matter"???  The guy that crosses the finish line first wins (assuming a fair race); if your engine is more efficient but you cross the line tied for second, you still loose the race.

I quoted the finger release numbers because it's a more realistic expectation for us.  The tests post mechanical release numbers and it doesn't change the order, the Predator was still faster by 1fps.

What I found so interesting was that the bows were all very close together and that for all the "aura" surrounding the ACS-CX bows, it was only 4fps faster than a maple core Bob Lee.  In fact, the ACS was only 4fps faster than a Bob Lee recurve, a GN Ghost recurve, a Black Widow PSR and a Hummingbird recurve.   The ACS was only 3fps faster than a Rose Oak Puma recurve and a Fedora Stalker.

[LBR]

I'm glad TBM started publishing these tests--probably the closest we'll ever get to an un-biased, real-world test of many different bows.

So far it's like I've experienced, and heard for years--there ain't a big difference (performance-wise) in the better bows.  

Chad

[Cutty47]

No doubt, though...the Bob Lee is a very underrated performer.

As far as the old "wives tale" Mr Magoo, what you're not taking into account with regard to efficiency and the heavy/light arrow thing is--

Less efficient designs, like the straight or "D" longbow become close the speed gap on the more efficient designs the heavier the arrow gets.

So...an HH bow becomes more efficient with a heavier arrow and closes the speed gap on the more efficient designs.

Will a less efficient design ever be faster than a more efficient design...NO...of course not...

But there are plenty of guys out there who will tell you that at some point, say within 10 fps just for the sake of argument--

...there are qualities of this less efficient design--

Less noise, pointability, stability for starters...

...that make it a darn good choice as a hunting bow from the ground.

LBR, I'm with you though on the publishing of the tests too.

But there are very significant performance differences in bows, the lower you go in arrow weight.  Drop that 9 grns per pound down to 6 grns and just like the less efficient designs close the gap on the more efficient designs, the more efficient designs definitely pull away.

Who would shoot 6 grns per pound for hunting purposes?

Well, I shoot a 75 pound recurve at just under over 7 grns per pound...450 grn arrow...and due to the design of the bow and the STS string suppressor I have mounted on it, I do it with NO string silencers, and it's hunting quiet.

A 450 grn arrow traveling at 230 plus fps is plenty KE for even the largest of North American Game.  As the wheelie crowd knows well.

[JOKER]

Here is some food for thought. If you compare a 5 horse power motor and a 8 horse. Put both motors on gocarts and run them 100ft, say with the 5 you get a speed of 30mph and with the 8 you get 40mph. Now put these motors in cars and run them 100ft, say with the 5 you now get 10mph and with the 8 you get 12mph. WOW! with the lighter vehickle there was 10mph difference and with the hevear there was a 2mph difference. Is the 5 catching the 8 with more weight? Does the 5 like more weight better?

[Cutty47]

Joker, how do you kill a deer with your car if it's only going 10 mph? Lol...

[JOKER]

They are easier to catch with the gocarts but you just hit there legs and they fall on you.

[tim-flood]

Actually I look at how fast the arrow is compared to the weight and the last one was 140 fps greated than the weight I think that that is really a good number.

[doctorbrady]

I agree that it is a question of effeciency.  The higher the effeciciency the more energy is going to go into the arrow and less into hand shock and the like.  But the other point that you can gain from these tests is that it takes a lot of change in efficiency to change the speed by more than a few fps.  You might be able to drop a pound or two by shooting an A&H or similarly effecient bow, but I am not sure that you could drop more than that and stil be ahead of the competitors.  I wish that the engineers in the crowd would crunch the effeciency numbers and show us simple folks how these numbers play out in real life...say a 50 pound A&H at 84% effeciency vs a 53 pound bow at 80 or 81%.  It is all interesting, and unlike some,I like to see folks making more effecient, yet still simple equipment.  At this stage in life, though, I don't notice the 3 extra pounds for the same performance much.  I think the best application is for folks like my wife who are only able to pull marginal hunting weights.  Here the most effecient bow available makes the most sense.  That's my 2 sense...I mean cents  

[Mr.Magoo]

First, this really isn't about "my bow is better than your bow", it's about "all our bows are pretty close to each other" (regardless of the time you spent on a waiting list).  So forget the hype and shoot what you like.

[Cutty47]

DocBrady brings up an excellent point.  Getting the most KE out of the least draw weight is really where bows like the Black Swan, Acs CX, Border, Centaur, Morrison Cheyenne shine.  

And no I'm not calling them "girly bows"...lol...

Sure you can kill a moose or an elk with a 45 pound lb, but a 45 pounder that shoots like a 55 pounder at the very least gives you a little peace of mind.

[Jason Jelinek]

There's 2 things that go into arrow speed...  efficiency and stored energy.  The stored energy is the area under the force draw curve.  The efficiency is the ratio of the kinetic energy divided by the stored energy.  The KE can be the same for 2 arrow/bow setups, but the efficiency and stored energy may be different.

2 bows may have the same draw weight but they can have different force draw curves.  It can be explained by the "high early draw weight" or how 2 bows can be the same draw weight but one feel heavier than the other.  If you put more reflex into a bow the early draw weight will probably be a little higher and harder to draw than one that has less reflex and has a straight force-draw curve.

You can get around efficiency by increasing the stored energy (more reflex usually) but the bow will feel a little harder to draw.

Clear as mud huh?

Jason

[shantam]

i have to disagre with jason.
at least about the "hard to pull".
if a bow has a high draw weight at brace height,the chances are high that,given a proper design,that he will be sweeter to pull.
the bow just allready has a higher percentage of his peak draw allready pulled,and therefore less pounds to pull on his way to 28" or what ever.
shantam

[Two Arrows]

Why not have the bow makers make the same draw weight at 28" and use the same grain arrow? If your bow is worthy, make one bow to the specs for the bow report. I have always paid attention to bow reports from back to my compound days. Now days it's just a pain in the butt to try to keep your math straight with all the different variations.

[LBR]

Jason brings up an interesting point.  Some bows feel heavier to draw, some lighter, at the same draw weight.

I don't know how that would map out on a draw force curve chart, but I know exactly how it feels. I don't see the advantage in a bow that shoots like a bow that is 5# heavier when it feels like you are pulling a bow that is 5# heavier.  

I have yet to experience a bow that shot like a comparable bow that is 10# heavier--5# is a stretch, unless it's being compared to something slower than the average good performing bow that today's market offers.  Seems the test results in TBM agree with my experience there.  

Wish I knew better how to understand how the DFC charts relate to how the bow actually feels when pulling it, if that is possible.  Figure that is something you can only tell by actually getting your hands on the bow though.

If anyone has more information (not opinion, but actual test results) on proving or disproving that some bows somehow "catch up" in performance with heavier arrows, I'd love to see it.  I've heard it both ways for years, and have my own thoughts on it, but I'll just leave it at that.

Interesting discussion to say the least.

Chad