Snakeskin, Super Glue and Tru-Oil (Finished w/ pics)). . .

[Ben Tiller]

So my spring projects just aren't going well.  I decided to skin my Brackenbury according to the instructions in the how to archives.  Everything has been going fine. . . until now.

The finish won't dry over the skins.  It is completely dry on the front of the limbs and the riser, but is still tacky on the skins.  I sprayed it all at the same time with the same number of coats.  It has been 36 hours.  The riser dried to the touch in 12.  

I don't see why the superglue would have anything to do with it, but that's all I can think.  It was over a week from the last coat of superglue to the first coat of finish.  Any thoughts?  Should I try and take it off with acetone before it is dry and just finish the skins with something different?  

I'm using Helmsman spar urethane.  

Thanks for any ideas.  

Ben

   

[wvtradbow]

That should be dry by now,but my first thoughts are why did you use super glue an not some sort of Elmers wood glue an did you remove all the scales off the skin before you sprayed it?? I've done a few snake skins an I can tell ya that when ever I used urethane on a recurve that although I had no drying problems it did crack over time because of the flex but I've had pretty good luck on long bows...

[YORNOC]

There are 100 different things that could go wrong. Super glue is fine, in fact usually much better than the titebond methods. The skins could be tanned or dried, may have residual oils on them, etc., etc. Hundreds of reasons.  Yes, remove it. Even certain bowyers I know have the same problem now and then. Varathane seems to bond better than any other sprayed on finish that I've seen. I've seen epoxies fail too.
I've skinned over 100 take down bows and have seen it all. I don't even spray finish on anymore. I treat it like a quality leather and first seal it with an acrylic leather water seal that you wipe on with a sponge. Tandy has one called acryllic sheen.  5 coats and let dry. About an hour total. Then I apply a good coating of my own neatsfoot /mink oil mixture to prevent salt stains. You treat it once a year like all good leather with pitch blend, mink oil, or whatever...Butchers wax is great too, especially when a totally flat finish is needed.. Easier and I think much better than urethanes. Lasts forever, doesn't crack, doesn't yellow, easy to do.

[yaderehey]

I am thinking he probably did not use super glue to attach the skins, but as a filler coat before applying the urethane.  I would give it some more time and if you are getting any sun in MT, let the limbs "bake" out in the sun (unstrung) for a few days.  Hitting it with acetone would be pretty drastic and I would wait a while before resorting to that.  Good luck!

[YORNOC]

Yeah, I think you are right Clark, after reading it again it does sound like he coated it with glue.

[del]

I ruint a browning I did with super glue.  Looked really bad.  i am fixin to skin another but without super glue.  I used tightbond to glue skin on and super glue as a coating.  Looked like crap.  No more super glue.  it was messy anyway.  <>< del

[broketooth]

first you need to tell us if the skins were dried. or did you kill the snakes that provided the skins for your bow. if your skins were dried you needed to rehydrate them. size tour bow with glue.apply the skins and let dry for at least a week depending on the relative humidity in your area.my personal opinion you need to be using something other than spar urethane on your glass backed bow. fuller plast, thunderbird or some 2 part marine epoxy  like what black widow uses would suit your purpose. what ever route you chose when you glue the skins they need to be completely dry before any finish is applied.all the varied results come from the skins not being dry.

[YORNOC]

Can't figure out why the whole coating with super glue thing came about. Great for applying skins in most applications, but I can't see any benefit of using it as a pre finish. Incompatibility between products can and should be avoided. Keep it simple!

[don s]

i used tbII. then a super thin fast dry ca glue (7 coats).thats it. it's been several years now with no problems. some people use tru oil to finish their skins. don

[bucksbuouy]

put it in front of a fan

[Keith Zimmerman]

I have never used superglue.  Just Titebond III and spray on finish.  I haven't had a problem of any kind yet.

[Ben Tiller]

Since there seems to be a lot of speculation about how I did the skinning, I'll elaborate. . .

1.  Two dried skins
2.  Scuffed limbs with 150 grit.
3.  Soaked skins for about 5 minutes in warmish water.
4.  Coated limbs with Tb III
5.  Applied Skins, worked out bubbles, evened out.
6.  Removed EVERY SINGLE SCALE (a pain)
7.  Let dry for three weeks.  
8.  Trimmed edges.
9.  Applied three coats of superglue. . .each dried for 24 hours, sanded between coats with 220 grit.  
10.  Waited two weeks before finishing.
11.  Applied Helmsman Spar Uerethane (Dried on Riser and Belly in 12 hours)
12. Limbs. . . Still waiting. . .

I don't think that the skins themselves have anything to do with it, because of all the super glue between them and the helmsman.  

I've used Helmsman on a half dozen bows, and always been satisfied.  

I really don't understand the superglue step.  I think that is what is messing this think up, and my guess is that after about a hundred shots its just going to crack.  It's pretty frustrating, because I really took my time with this project, and have dedicated just about every spare moment I've had for a month to it.  

As of right now, it has been 60 hours, still tacky.  I don't understand why admin closes the comments on the how-to threads.  It seems like in the five years since mike posted his build along there has been a lot of experience gained; it would be nice to have it all in one place.

On another note, I tried the three rivers method of Barge cement. on another bow.  Don't do that.  

ben

[YORNOC]

Heh, a lot of guys with no leather experience have tried the contact method like barge and ruined a great set of skins. Myself included in my early days.
I'd get the spar off. It is not curing. And if it does eventually, it is obviously not stable and will crack and/or fail. I've removed it in the past while still tacky with mineral spirits and 000 steel wool going with the scales only. This is pretty mild, wont effect glass, or glue bonding. I've seen repeated acetone use get into nooks and crannies and discolor and even delaminate.( yeah, it was me)  Okay to give a final wipe or cleaning, but you've got some work to do.
Because of the glue issue, give yourself a break on this one. Dont spray another finish over it. Get yourself some butcher's wax at the local hardware store. Give the skins several coats and you are DONE in 5 minutes.
I have an ugly Wapiti with watersnake skins on it that has NOTHING else as a finish. Glued it up, butcher's waxed it, done. Been 4 years, hunted rain, shine, and snow. Water beads right off.  

Another skin with the mink oil/neatsfoot oil mix up close and personal. Its so damn easy and fast. Your shooting the same day your skins are dried and trimmed.

[JimB]

Ben,I'll tell you what I think and it is pure speculation.I have used Helmsmans a lot and this is a very dry climate.I forget the manufacturers recommendation for recoat time,something like 2 hrs?That hasn't worked for me.If I apply several coats like that,it takes forever to dry.The first coat isn't cured enough,you seal that in with the second,that isn't cured enough and you seal that in with the third and so on.

It worked much better for me if I recoated no sooner than 12 hours.I promise you that the next coat will still adhere well,as the first is nowhere near full cure.After the last coat,I let it hang for several days before installing rest,sideplate and then shooting.I judge the cure of the finish by the odor.When the odor of the finish is almost gone,I feel confident handling the bow for use.

I am convinced that the super glue is causing you no problems.It is a good substrate for about any finish.I wonder if the Helmsmans wasn't applied a little heavier over the skins? If so,and you followed the recommended recoat times,it is just taking longer to cure in that area.

If you have the patience,just let it hang,even if it takes 2 weeks.It will cure if you give it time.If you don't,you could take it off with a paper towel lightly saturated with acetone and go from there.If you refinish them with Helmsmans,try a very light coat,then wait 12-24 hrs before the next coat,don't apply the next coat till the tackiness is gone from the previous.

It dawned on me that you and I are in the same climate.I'm in Whitehall,and it has been cool and damp a lot lately.I think you just need to give it more time.That is the part I hate but it may be just the ticket in this case.

[The Night Stalker]

i did my skins and it worked out great with the superglue abd the spar urethane.

[Orion]

Ben:  Difficult to say what the problem is.  I've had that happen once or twice.  In my case, I'm pretty sure I can attribute it to not shaking the spray can enough before spraying, and the carrier didn't get mixed in enough with the finish so I sprayed mostly carrier. I think it's the carrier that doesn't dry/evaporate.  It sometimes leaves a milky finish.  May not be visible on the skins, but would be on the wood.  In those situations, I've waited for days for the finish to dry and it didn't.  End up taking it off and starting over.  

BTW, I do not use the super glue step. After the skins are dry, I give them 3-4 thin coats of Helmsman or Varathane. Never had a problem with the finish subsequently holding up or cracking.

[Chad Sivertsen]

I'm also in Montana and have had a lot of experience with Helmsman Spar U. I would follow JimB advice and let it dry for several days even a week or two.

My experience: Sprayed, wiped, dipped with and without gasket. I use it on arrows and bows. I prefer to wipe on a thin coat let dry for a few hours and another thin coat, more drying and more coats, 3-5 coats should be fine. A few years ago I dipped some arrows without a gasket and the coat was thick and took several days to dry. After drying it was fine and those arrows are still in good shape. The thick coat added a lot of weight to the shafts also.

An important note here: Helmsman Spar and many other similar chemical products have a shelf life. If your can of whatever is old the product may change and compromise some of it qualities such as finish, drying time, etc.

I would let it dry for a week or two, I think it will be fine.

[Chad Sivertsen]

I see Orion's comments and need to add something else. Spar Urethane and other similar products should not be shaken, only stirred. Shaking puts air bubbles throughout the product and may start it curing while still in the can, it will also most likely shorten the shelf life. All that is straight from the manufacturer.

Many glues and adhesives have limited shelf life. If you have problems with any of this stuff age may be a factor, the product not yours.

[don s]

is it possible that that can of helmsman is just a bad can? maybe they had a bad batch at the factory? as far as ca glue cracking. i have never had that happen. don

[Ben Tiller]

I dont think i applied too much finish to the limbs as some have suggested, because i went tip to tip in one steady motion...so the riser has the exact same amount of finish as the limbs.  Remember, everywhere is COMPLETELY dry except for the skins. So it has something to do with either the skin or the superglue. Its been 72 hours now, and no change from hour 12. I put the fan on it 24 hours ago. Ill give it 120 hours, but if no change by then im going to have to take it off. It has been kind of humid, but again everywhere else has dried. Thanks for all of the ideas!

Ben