Why the heavy points?

[Ben Maher]

Originally posted by Bobaru:
John:  

So, keep on shooting the arrows that work best for you, and don't get too worked up about all the cross-talk on heavy arrows or high FOC because none of that stuff is substantiated by evidence that is reproducable.

There are a couple of people around who actually make a living guiding hunters on Big Game whose real world life experience would say different .

 To dismiss years of field work and experience with such flippancy without at least field work to show otherwise ...    

I don't shoot EFOC arrows as the game I shoot is considered light skinned medium sized game . The original idea , I believe , behind the EFOC testing / theory was for the hunting of large boned, heavy , thick skinned big game .
The testing began because of poor results being acheived with 'light' equipment / arrows and even flimsier broadheads as the quest for speed etc gathered attention.
the EFOC argument was never directed at people hunting 150lb whitetail deer , although the same principle may be applied to good , if  perhaps uneeded , effect on thin skinned North American game.

I also believe it is also a product of carbon arrows , which in the past have so often been very light in physical weight that the heavier heads allowed the use of carbon shafts that could now weigh in the more accepted weight ranges [9-11gpp] without the use of weight tubes etc .

[Ben Maher]

Originally posted by Ben Maher:
 

Originally posted by Bobaru:
John:  

So, keep on shooting the arrows that work best for you, and don't get too worked up about all the cross-talk on heavy arrows or high FOC because none of that stuff is substantiated by evidence that is reproducable.

There are a couple of people around who actually make a living guiding hunters on Big Game whose real world life experience would say different .

 To dismiss years of field work and experience with such flippancy without at least field work or evidence to disprove otherwise ...      

I don't shoot EFOC arrows as the game I shoot is considered light skinned medium sized game . The original idea , I believe , behind the EFOC testing / theory was for the hunting of large boned, heavy , thick skinned big game .
The testing began because of poor results being acheived with 'light' equipment / arrows and even flimsier broadheads as the quest for speed etc gathered attention.
the EFOC argument was never directed at people hunting 150lb whitetail deer , although the same principle may be applied to good , if  perhaps uneeded , effect on thin skinned North American game.

I also believe it is also a product of carbon arrows , which in the past have so often been very light in physical weight that the heavier heads allowed the use of carbon shafts that could now weigh in the more accepted weight ranges [9-11gpp] without the use of weight tubes etc . [/b]

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by john fletch:
.................No intention of startng a ruckus here, but...........

       :rolleyes:    

Whatever......you're kidding, right?? Good one man!

I like EFOC for the better penetration and excellent arrow flight.

Read the Ashby reports or at least read his article in one of the older Traditional Bowhunter Magazines.

[Bobaru]

Ben, I hear what you say.  But, I disagree.  First, Ashby maintains his work is not scientific.  Second, nobody can reproduce his results because his work is not scientific.

This is probably not politically correct on this forum, but I discount Ashby's work for two reasons: (1) Ashby does not attempt to control all the variables except those which he desires to measure which seriously limits any results (2) Ashby then puts together slick graphs which imply a measure of accuracy and certitude which I'm certain his basic data never justifies, yet he never mentions this (meaning his stuff is similiar to the laundry detergent commercials that promice "30% more better" something or other.  

Other than Ashby, I haven't seen all the research you're talking about.  Sorry.  

If it does exist I'm more than willing to take a look.

In the meantime, I've run my own tests on the arrows which will fly out of my bow and have determined which arrows have the best penetration.  And, while Ashby claims to have spent over $ 300,000 on research which is not scientific, the work I've done for myself is sufficiently scientific to satisfy myself that EFOC arrows are not a worthwhile venture for me.  

You can shoot whatever arrows you want for what ever reason you want.  

Have a good day.

[JimB]

I don't think Ashby said that his work was not scientific but please point out to me where that is.I could easily be wrong.Watching a video recently where he gave an introduction to the study,sounded like he said the opposite.All that may be getting a little off the original question.

Regarding heavy point weight though,O.L.Adcock set at least 3 World flight bow records using high FOC arrows.He and I believe Bob Morrison got Ashby interested in the concept back when Ed Ashby didn't think it would be important to his studies.He has since changed his mind based on what he has found.

As of 2009 at least,it looks like 2 of O.L.'s World flight bow records still stand and my understanding is,the one that was broken,was done so with high FOC arrows.The theory used to be that a light front end on the flight arrow would keep the point up and it would go farther.O.L.,a flight engineer,did something to change that thinking.

[Wannabe1]

With all this said if you do not like to tinker ,some do and some dont, just shoot what works for you after all we dont hunt elephants here in North America.  

Due to a shoulder injury during a past deployment, I am shooting a max weight of 47#. My bow is 62", 47# @ 29". FF string and cut to center. I played around with a bunch of different combinations yesterday and the best flying arrow was GT Hunter 3555's cut 30" bop tipped with 125gr field tips. Total arrow weight of 384gr.

Now, I'm only using this bow on Blacktail deer. I will be using a Steel Force Phat Head 4 blade broadhead 125gr. This arrow seems a little light to me but, I can't argue with the way they are shooting and I'm nailing my grouping. Never shot a deer yet so, what are your folks thoughts? Will I be good at this light of an arrow?

 

[BEN]

Spot on target!!!      

[BradLantz]

Here is what I know to be true and it has been gained by losing a few animals I need not have lost.

Light arrows shed their energy much quicker than heavy arrows. The entire goal of a broadhead tipped arrow is to enter, slice and exit - doing the most damage it can make and leaving a blood trail we can follow.

Light arrows will work great when the shots are perfect, and when they're not perfect? You will suffer lost animals for it.


you can do something else too ........ watch Real Tree and similar videos and about 1/2 the animals shot with very high powered compounds (and high KE setups) get horrible penetration because they're using light arrows and mechanical heads.


2 and 3 years ago I shot a 51# @ 27" Zipper, weighted carbons and 225 gr Steel Force single bevel heads. 2 shots, 2 passthrough. Not a lot KE in that setup. Last year I went to wheels, lighter arrow, much higher KE and didn't get a passthrough (though I did recover the deer the next afternoon due to determination and luck)

I believe 100% had I been shooting my heavy arrows and 51# Zipper and Steel Force heads I'd have passed through that deer those light arrows and 4 blade head failed to.

JMHO

[Zradix]

Seems a bit light to me.
8.17gn/# may well void any warranty.

Might work on a deer...I'd say get close.

If it were me I'd experiment with some heavier arrows just to be on the safe side.
You might like the way it'll tone the the vibes/sound.

Again you might be just fine.

Sure is a nice looking bow. sorta short riser-long limbs. Bet it's smooth!

[dragonheart]

Originally posted by Wannabe1:
 

With all this said if you do not like to tinker ,some do and some dont, just shoot what works for you after all we dont hunt elephants here in North America.  

Due to a shoulder injury during a past deployment, I am shooting a max weight of 47#. My bow is 62", 47# @ 29". FF string and cut to center. I played around with a bunch of different combinations yesterday and the best flying arrow was GT Hunter 3555's cut 30" bop tipped with 125gr field tips. Total arrow weight of 384gr.

Now, I'm only using this bow on Blacktail deer. I will be using a Steel Force Phat Head 4 blade broadhead 125gr. This arrow seems a little light to me but, I can't argue with the way they are shooting and I'm nailing my grouping. Never shot a deer yet so, what are your folks thoughts? Will I be good at this light of an arrow?

  [/b]

I would look for a different 125 grain BH.  That one does not look like a great one for penetration on a bone hit.  I would wnat more arrow weight, but I like about 10-11 GPP so I am in the other camp.  At that bow weight and set up, I would want as close to 3:1 as possible.  IMHO

[dragonheart]

Penetration=recovered animal.  That has been studied in several wound loss studies of bowhunters.  Find what penetrates the best and you can shoot accurately.

[owlbait]

Try a couple other weight arrows and broadheads and MEASURE the penetration you get in that target. If you can get an arrow to penetrate better and fly as well,.....

[Wannabe1]

Ok, so I tried an Arrow Dynamic Trad Lite. Cut 29.5" bop with a 175gr field tip. Total arrow weight on my scale is 495gr. They flew pretty well but, looks like they are hitting the outside edge of my shelf. Need to raise nock? Penetration was awesome as it went through the block target and a little styrofoam target behind it and into the plywood. No joke! But, hitting the outside edge of riser worries me.

[last arrow]

Wannabe1,  If your are hitting the outside edge of your shelf you are probably still too stiff.  I would go with a 200 or 250 grain head and see how things fly.

Personally, I shoot 300 grains up front (610 grain  total arrow weight) out of a 51 lb bow.  I have had the arrow sticking in the ground after every deer shot with this combination - which is my goal.  I used to shoot about 470 grains total arrow weight out of a 60 lb bow and had occasional penetration problems and never had the arrow leave the deer (though usually had entry and exit holes).  I have had problems recovering 3 deer using that combination.  All were due to poor penetration on shoulder area hits.  When someone says they have a method that will increase penetration I listen and test for myself.   I know heavier arrows work and believe high front of center helps.

[Wannabe1]

Hot Digiddy Dog! I think I finally got it! Beman MFX Classic 500, cut 30" bop, 75gr insert w/175gr tip for a total arrow weight of 556gr. Flying like missiles and hitting hard and penetrating deep! No sign of hitting the shelf edge. Can't use the shaft I originally wanted but, a humane kill is more important too me. Thank you all for the help and tips.

John, please forgive me if it seemed like I hijacked your thread. I just needed the help to get this bow in tip top shape for hunting season.   :D    

[Kris]

Excellent job Wannabe 1

What you have accomplished with your tuning is what I too spend countless hours doing with great satisfaction!  There is no end to how you can change things up..don't be surprised when down the road you surpass the efficiency of this setup as well!  I love when we find things out for ourselves, that is the most reinforcing feedback we can get.

Best of luck and keep experimenting (***WARNING*** tuning traditional  bows can be addictive).

Kris

[LimBender]

This is why my new carbon arrows are about 8gpi instead of the 10 and 11 in some 400 spine arrows.  I can have my cake and eat some of it.  I'm saving 65-85 grains in weight in the arrow and switching that to the point, and still will be shooting close to 10 gpi with 275 up front.

Testing on live subjects hopefully will be conducted in about 4 months.     :D

[Wannabe1]

Ok, so here's a pic I just shot of a MFX Classic 500 w/250gr up front. The setup I described above. I pulled the arrow out a little so you could see the tip. It completely penetrated both targets, 1 sheet of 1/2" treated plywood and 1/4" into the second sheet. Will this work?!   :D

 

[58WINTERS]

High speed photography shows substantial arrow flex upon impact. Concentrating the weight in the head transfers the weight to the target/animal instead of being wasted in the arrow flex.

[daveycrockett]