vertical paradox/ tuning help

[RUTANDSTRUT]

I am shooting a predator classic (48# @28") at 26.5" draw with an 8 st sbd string with a super glove.  My arrows are 28" traditional only 500 arrows with 100 gr insert w/ 150 gr tips, 5" helical feathers with 7" wrap.  My bare shaft will group tightly with my fletched shafts out to about 40 yards but always show tail high no matter what is done.  My problem is that the arrows are kicking off the shelf (can see evidence from wrap residue on shelf directly over my knuckle) and i can't seem to fix it on this bow.  I have played with different arrows, brace height, strings, different arrows, nocking point, etc. which all arrows strike the shelf.  The bow is deadly accurate and extremely consistent for me even with magnus stinger 4 blades (only ones i shot out of this bow) but would like to get that intitial kick removed.  My fletched shafts show no visible sign of the kick and recover fast but i know this could affect penetration at close ranges.  Any ideas what causes this downward pressure on my arrows?

[JimB]

Torquing the string or too high an elbow on your drawing arm which causes downward pressure on the arrow IF you shoot split finger.I shoot nock high with bare shafts,no matter where I move my nocking point.It may be something you can't control-depending.Another option is a feather rest that would get the arrow up enough to clear the shelf.I think the fact that the fletched,broadhead arrows are shooting well is a good sign.

[RUTANDSTRUT]

thanks jim, looking for answers which i believe you probably answered.  I do shoot split finger.  i've also noticed that if i shoot three under in a target stance, my bare shaft will fly perfect but dont want to change my style.

[Jock Whisky]

Another thing to try is raising your brace height a bit at a time. Worked for me.

JW

[Orion]

If it's not something in your form (i.e., torquing the bow or the string vertically), it almost has to be the nock point. If the arrows are slapping off the shelf and porpoising, not fishtailing, seems the nock point is too low.  Where do you have it set and how much have you moved it?

[RUTANDSTRUT]

nocking point is set at 1/2".  its been from 1/4" to over an inch with the same results.  its something in my form or tiller but cant figure it out yet.

[Orion]

Hmmmm.  1/2-inch seems in the ballpark.  9/16 or5/8-inch might be better, at least worth a try.  If you didn't move up in small increments, say 1/16 or so at a time, you could have gone right past a height that may have worked. If the nock point is too high, the arrow will also porpoise coming out of the bow.  Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  

[elknutz]

Have you tried a second nock below the arrow?

[Art B]

You mentioned everything but trying different hand positions. Sounds like a limb timing problem.........Art

[Javi]

Chances are you have a little too much load on your index finger.. 80% should be on the middle finger, 15% on the index and 5% on the ring finger.. approximately..

Play around with the load and finger position to see what gives you the best flight..

[CEO]

Try Elknutz suggestion. It’s possible that the arrow is sliding down the string.

[KentuckyTJ]

Yep X3 on elknutz suggestion, maybe your arrow nock is moving down the string on release. If that doesn't solve it there may be something wrong with the limbs on the bow. Video yourself shooting from the side and watch it is slow motion. See if one of the limbs is working harder than the other. Sounds to me like your trad only spines are good at that weight and arrow setup.

[Orion]

I agree with Elknut's suggestion.  Also if the bow is relatively short and you have a long draw length, there's a good chance that you are putting unequal vertical finger pressure on the string.  I've always felt the index finger should be pulling about as much as the middle finger with the ring finger pulling about half as much as the other two, i.e., 40-40-20.  Of course, different percentages will work for different people. I can intentionally make an arrow porpoise (sometimes unintentionally) using a short bow by not applying enough draw force from my index finger.  For what it's worth.  Something else to mess around with.    

[kuch]

I could have started a thread to mimic this one. Same situation, almost exactly...I shoot split and consistently have slight nock high to nock high.The above suggestions are right on the money in my opinion. I have already tried them and it helps: small adjustment of nock point and second nock below helped some....the rest is me . I have a high elbow therefore downward torque with my release....but fairly consistent and I can live with it.As far as penetration issues at close range...My opinion is there are way more variables that can effect penetration than slight nock high .

[wtpops]

What you are describing is a tunning and or form issue and not paradox and the info above will get you on the right track

[RUTANDSTRUT]

thanks for all the help.  i have concluded that the problem is the load on my fingertips.  after shooting my fletched shafts today with broadheads, i decided not to change a thing.  my accuracy far outweighs this nock high problem which recovers very quickly.  for shooters with similar problem, it was the excessive load my two bottom fingers have upon release which i only could see those results after shooting bare fingers for awhile.  thanks again

[Sixby]

I like the last post because as I read this I came to the conclusion that you do not have a problem, First indication of that is having a bareshaft consistantly landing in your group of fletched arrows at 40 yards. IMHO that is pretty phenominal arrow flight. My only suggestion was that if you measure tiller I would almost bet that you are postive 1/8 too no more than 1/4 in. this would possibly make your nockset of 1/2 in perhaps an eighth to 1/4 in high. Butttttttttttt.If your bow is shooting that well with split and that well with three under I do have to disagree with any posts saying that a limb may be bad or out of tiller ect.
sounds like you got a bow that anyone would be glad to own to me.
God bless you, Steve