permission advice

[Dustin Waters]

Well the day has come that leasing finally caught up to my little slice of heaven.  I stopped in yesterday to speak with the landowners son-in-law for the obligatory question of permission.  It has never been an issue a friendly hand shake, christmas gifts for the kids and a crisp 100 bucks in a card to say thanks for letting me hunt.  I knew something was funky when he answered the door and I saw the look on his face.  I said hey hows it going, i just wanted to stop in and make sure it was alright that I hunted again this year.  (it has been 6 years) His response felt like a punch in the gut.  "Actually NO, I leased it out!"  Wait what?  To who, how much, for how long. They were all questions I wanted answered but didnt really want to hear the answers to.  If you guys know what I mean.
So after telling him I would double his money right now on the spot, I left with a maybe next year answer and an empty feeling deep in my stomach.

My question to you guys is this.  Should I go above this guys head and talk directly the landowners and see what the deal is?  Should I offer them the doubled amount of money to sign a lease.  In my inexperienced opinion.  The son in law even with power of attorney can't sign a lease agreement to the farm.  But Im not sure on that.  I dont want to hurt my chances for next season by pissing this guy off, but what am I to do.  I arrowed my biggest buck with traditional gear on this farm.  I have kicked numerous trespassers to the curb, cut downed trees into firewood, spent my hard earned money on posting it for them.  I have made friends with all of the landowners around them and been an all around good person.  Only to lose it to a friend of a cousin, whom the son-in-law doesnt even have the phone number to.  
Whats a guy to do?
I realize this might not be directly related to traditional bowhunting or maybe it is, but I live for traditional bowhunting and this was the place that let me get away and allowed me to be who I really am inside when the fall leaves started turning and the air got crisp.  I loved this place like it was my own.
Advice is certainly welcome fellas and ladies.

[Eugene Slagle]

Unfortunatly in todays world & economy many farms are going the leasing route.

I hunt on leased property & know the owner very well, mostly our lease covers the taxes that is acrued each year.

I would still be friendly with the son-n-law & talk to the owner when possible to keep relations positive with you & them but remind them a few times that you are interested in restablishing the relationship you had with them.
Maybe get with the club that leased the property to see if they have an opening for you to join.

[Dustin Waters]

its not a club its a solo guy.  A friend of a cousin.  The son-in-law even said, he seems like an alright guy, Ive only met him once.  What you have known me for 6 years and sell me out to someone you have only met once?  Cmon now

[Lost Arra]

This story I heard last week pretty much sums up the hunting lease mentality.

Three siblings who live in different parts of the state inherited grandpas farm and lease the grazing rights to my friend (who does not hunt). One of the siblings hunts the property but his brother and sister do not.

The brother and sister found out they could not only lease it for grazing but also for hunting so they now charge their own brother to hunt the place.  I bet that's a great family gathering at holidays!  

[Flingblade]

Talk to the landowners directly.  Maybe they are not even aware of the lease.  Explain to them the work you have put in and the relationship you have and ask why you were not given the opportunity to lease first.  If that doesn't work pull the signs you posted and move on.  I lost a farm in Iowa that I loved to hunt not to a lease but the landowner died and the land was sold so I know how you feel.  I killed my best buck on that farm with my bow.  It sucks I know, but finding and hunting new property is exciting and may lead to even greater adventures in the future.  Good luck.

[Bjorn]

On the 'power' chart 'son in law' is as powerful as it gets; he is married to daddy's little girl and does not get overruled. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[Looper]

I think I would write the owners a letter.  First, thank them for allowing you to hunt there in the past. I'd let them know how much time and energy you've put into their property, that you treated the land as your own, and that you were dismayed that it was leased without giving you an opportunity to do likewise.  I'd ask if there was a reason you weren't asked about a lease, and, if, in the future, the property comes up for lease, you would be honored to be considered.

Give them a couple of weeks, if they don't respond, maybe take some cookies and make a personal visit.

[PaddyMac]

Looper's advice is good. Especially asking if there was a reason why you weren't given the opportunity. (There is a reason, of course, rudeness and/or thoughtlessness, but whattya gonna do?) But I think I'd send basically the same letter to both the owners and the son-in-law and I'd mention that you're writing to each. The problem here is pissing off the son-in-law by going over his head, so I'd bring that concern up in the letter. Be cordial. Be accepting of whatever decision, remind them of your gifts and behavior in the past and how much you've respected the land and the owners and ask to be considered in the future. About the best you can hope for I think is for the landowners to ask the son-in-law "what up with that?"

And then start looking for another.

Bummer. Good luck.

[LimBender]

That sucks, but I wouldn't try to go over the SIL - prolly not gonna end well.  

IMHO (with the usual caveats), I would step back and trying your best not to be angry or emotional have 1 more conversation with the SIL: (1) walk through everything you have done for the place, how much you love it, and how this bothers you; (2) see if there is an opening for 2 to hunt or if it is okay to contact the cousin;  (3) make sure he knows if things fall through with the cousin you want to be there; and (4) that if money is an issue to come to you first.  

Who knows, the cousin may not hunt much, may flake out, or may get cross-wise with the SIL (he's only met him once), so I would do whatever it takes not to burn the bridge.

Good luck!

[wscruggs]

I would try to talk to the land owner. Chances are they have no idea that has even been leased out.

[Friend]

My suggestions may not be your cup of tea, yet it has paid often several times for me.

**Please note that the following is merely a suggestion.**

Avoid burning any bridges and you may possibly still need to do a little damage control.
I would suggest writing him a letter and possibly consider apologizing for being caught totally off guard for enjoying a privilege you may have taken for granted. Express your sincere appreciation for past year privileges.  Ask him to consider you for a future lease provided that the current lessee does not renew.
Send him another amicable note in the early spring and another at the beginning of summer.
The lease may not be available for several years. Be persistent and keep sending friendly communications. You don’t want him to forget you. Note: Has taken me up to five years to secure permission to hunt prime ground by following the aforementioned instructions. Perhaps they just got tired of receiving my letters. The end result was the same.  Note: I have had up to six different property owners receiving these requests at one time. May only take one ‘yes’  to make a great season.

Also, when you can demonstrate that you have genuine interest in looking over their property, permission is often re-granted and provides the owner or over-seer some peace of mind. Have had adjoining property owners ask me to hunt when they didn’t permit hunting in the past and I had never approached them and have also had property owners call me to hunt on their property that I hadn’t hunted in years or lost permission in the same way you did.  Several times I have been re- granted permission even when someone was made a very high offer   - Owners have stated that they knew I cared and would eagerly step up if required and some have communicated that they felt some self obligation.

Cordial perseverance may pay off and if you do succeed find out directly what it will take to ensure the lease has better chance of continued renewals.

I openly treat their land, by action and not mere words, as if it was my own land and in some cases better than the owners themselves.  Hunting rights are a wonderful and sacred privilege.

[Jedimaster]

I doubt the SIL's story is entirely accurate.  Leasing the property to "a friend of a cousin, who he doesn't even have the phone number to" sounds very much like a quickly made up and intentionally vague story meant to throw you off the track with now way to recover.

At any rate, there is nothing to gain by going over the guy's head unless you are already aware of some issue between him and the rightful land owner.  However, if you have a relationship with the real owners, you might make it convenient to run into them and bring this up.  Do it without finger pointing or showing your anger, then let them know you want to be first in line if the lease doesn't work out.  

Maybe, if it seems appropriate, "apologize" for not offering to lease it and let them know you weren't aware that was an option ... and that in the future you'd like an opportunity to do so.

Just be tactful so if you do go back there are no hard feelings between you and the SIL. A guy like that could cause more misery than he's worth.

[acadian archer]

Friend has the best solution. Best advice I have seen o regards to these matters

[bolong]

In Arkansas, if you have power of attourney, you could legally execute a lease agreement.

[D. Key]

I agree that Friend has the right suggestion.  A few years ago I was able to lease a small tract of land with my buddy to bowhunt.  We had the place for 6 years when "Mom" decided to turn over the land to Son #3, whom lived within 40 miles of the place.  He immediately booted us off and made a game preserve out of it, vowing to me that "No One" would be allowed to hunt there.  I approached "Mom" (whom I had a great relationship with) and unfortunately, she said it was totally up to Son #3.  That's when I bought my own land and now hunt there every year with no fears of loosing it.  

Best of luck to you.

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Offer them 4x the money....stinks but is reality.

[Hard Times]

Friend is spot on, We lost some ground in a very similar way after hunting it all our life. Funny thing is, the guy's that leased it without us knowing, lost it in the same manner a short two years later. (Poetic Justice)We took the high road and now have a chance to hunt it again.Funny thing about situation's like these, nothing's permanent. Things can change rather quickly, wise not to burn bridges that you may want to cross in the future.

Rod

[Kip]

Maybe you can become friends with the guy that leased it and split the cost and work and make it a two man club if enough room.Kip

[Shifting Shadow]

Don't burn bridges with the SIL, call or write the landowner and ask for clarification in a non- threatening way and Pray!

In reality, I like the tenor of Friends response, but there are other good ones as well.

[Dustin Waters]

I've decided that I will write a letter to the land owner.  This sunday I plan to stop at the SIL house and apologize for being caught off guard and have a contract and checkbook with me.  Doubling his money for the next ten years will hopefully ring a bell to him and we can work a deal out.  If not I will just say thank you for the years I had out here.  If the lease doesn't work out you have my number and if there is anything I can do to help, just let me know.
I went out yesterday and re marked all of the property lines for them and pulled the one stand I had on their place.  I now plan to hang two on each end of the property line to try and intersect deer that use that little block of timber.  The one stand was in a perfect spot where both trails converged in a natural funnel. Now i just have to hope that on any given morning I pick the right trail instead of having the trail market cornered like years past.  Oh well what can you do
Thanks for all of your help guys