Carbons a different animal !!!

[Shawn Leonard]

Ok here we go, I get several Pm's a day regarding the selection of carbon arrows for a particular bow. I thought I would write down one major thing that people are missing. Carbons and their spine rating are pretty much meant for the compound guys. I mean a 35/55(.500) spine is or was made to shoot out of a very effiecient 35-55# compound with a 100-125 grain point and cut to a certain length say 28"s. So why than do folks feel that this same arrow will shoot out of a 35-55# recurve or longbow? It will but it must be left long or the spine must be softened by adding lots of point weight. I see post all the time saying I am shooting a 60# recurve at my 28" draw and a .300 spine carbon cut to 29"s with 175 grains up front flies perfect. Sorry "NO", that .300 spine arrow was meant to be shot out of a 75# or more compound with 125 grain point, how by adding 50 grains can you soften it enough to shoot out of a 60# recurve you can't, even if left long. Just think about what you are trying to do and than go with the lighter spine. Carbon recovers way quicker than aluminum or wood so you can get away with a lot less(spine) or more in this case(point weight). I love our longbows and recurves but face it they never will shoot as hard as a modern day compound, so stop making arrow selection so hard. Try adding a bunch of point weight to the carbons you already have tuned to your bow. I bet most will be impressed at how they still fly well, if not better than before. I have had a ton of custom bows over the years and have a good idea what will shoot out of most of them, but do yourself a favor and try experimenting with some heavy points on your carbons and you will see too that they are in fact a different animal!! Also don't forget to experiment, that is half the fun!! Shawn

[Bowspirit]

I agree bud. Outta my bow, an Axis 300, 31 inch BOP and drawn just shy of 30", needs about 350 up front to get it flying nice...

[wv lungbuster]

Been experimenting my self with .500 spine. I'm getting great flight with 350 grains on a 30" bare shaft. I'm shooting a 55# at my draw and the bow is cut to center.

[Night Wing]

Since carbon arrows are a different animal, it's the main reason I shoot aluminum.

I never bought into the notion a carbon arrow is easier to tune than an aluminum arrow especially at the poundage I shoot from both of my recurves with a 32" BOP arrow.

[scbowhnter]

Great post and certainly reflects what I've been seeing with my set up this year. I went to more weight up front and got much better arrow grouping than before. And bare shafts and fletched ones that hit together.

Thanks Shawn!

[Shawn Leonard]

Nightwing, the problem with aluminum is they are noisier on the release(that hollow ping) and most important, I can shoot carbons in bad conditions, like rocks, hard stumps and a bunch of other punishing shots and after a year still have most of them that I started with. Aluminums just do not hold up nearly as well and end up not very cost effective at all. I have some carbons from a dozen I bought 5 years ago. Go to a shoot like the Muzzy, I have seen guys go thru a dozen aluminums in a round or two. Chris my friend, you get the point and you are a woodie type of guy!! Shawn

[Tutanka]

I fully agree, most of my bows are around 53 to 58 pounds at a 28.5" draw length and shoot heritage 90's or 150's depending on the center cut with 200 to 225 up front and most of the shafts are cut between 30 to 31".  
However, I recently picked a 53# longbow that is center cut.  After a lot of tuning I ended up with a heritage 75 which has a .611 spine with 300 grains up front just to get the shaft slightly week. I really do not like to shoot this much weight forward but the arrow flies really good.  I would have never thought that I would need a shaft this week, but you never know until you go thru the tuning process. Personally I like tuning a bow and learn something a little different about each one of them.

[Troy Breeding]

Shawn,

I think one of the main things you forgot to point out is the sight window. The depth of the sight window has as much to do with proper arrow sizing as just about anything else. Very few bows are cut deep enough in the sight window to handle high spine shafts. I found this out when I started working for that Ultra EFOC arrow. I cut my sight window 3/16" past center (about as far as yo will see anyone cut a sight window) and for some silly reason I just knew it was going to take a 300 def. shaft to get what I wanted. I started with 300 shafts and found that by the time I was able to hit the UEFOC range I had dang near a 900 gr arrow. As it stands right now I'm getting that UEFOC and shooting 340 def. arrows that only weigh 685grs.

Troy

[joe skipp]

The one problem I had when selling carbons, the customers would cut them too short and not add enough weight up front. Carbons need weight up front and should be 2-3" longer than your normal draw length.

I personally shoot AD Trad Lites, spine out 35/55 from my 56 and 58" recurves. Since I don't like a lot of arrow "overhang" due to my split vision aiming method, I experimented on how short I could get them.

I draw a true 27" and cut my AD's 28.5". I installed a 100 gr brass insert, 30 gr broad head adapter, nock insert and glued on 9/32 nocks. With my 125 gr Zwickey Eskimos, I have 255 grs up front. 5" Full helical parabolic feathers and they fly great. Total arrow wt is 600 grs.

I worked 5 yrs in a compound shop and ALL carbons that came out were spined for COMPOUNDS. It was also recommended 1.5" longer for broad head clearance. When experimenting with carbons, you should cut off no more than 1/4" at a time while maintaining a minimum of 250 grs up front. While that last statement isn't written in stone, we found that it's a good starting point and works best for us.

[Kituwa]

I have noticed the same thing with carbon arrows.When i find ones that have the right spine they are usually target type arrows and are smaller diam. so then they dont fit in my bow quiver tight.I am not into the light arrow ,light BH, thing.When you are useing sights and shooting at known distances a really flat shooting bow is cool but in real hunting situations insticntive or point shooting will out do it every time.We used to set up 3D animals along a trail in the woods that was set up as close as possible to be like real hunting,,the instinct guys always out shot the guys with sites and compounds.And of coarse a heavy wide broadhead is very deadly.

[Shawn Leonard]

Troy, no I did not mention a ton of things, like string choice and how many strands and nocks being too tight and braceheight, etc.,etc. etc. That is why I said "one major thing". There are tons of things that come down to the final tuning of the arrow to the bow, but the major one is getting close on spine to start with and as I said many people are not even close on the choice they make. I could write a book on all the methods of choosing the right arrow for ones set-up and as a matter of fact I am preparing a few articles as I have been asked to write down my findings and opinions. This is not rocket science and if people get some good advise and a good starting point, they can than do the final tune themselves. I wrote this little tidbit just to get people thinking, and to have an idea of how to choose the right spined arrow to start with, and to tune from there. Shawn

[mrjsl]

Shawn, if I hadda known you were the go to guy I probably would have emailed you first, but I went ahead and learned the hard way and it took a while.

Now shoot cx150's (.487) with 225 up front out of a 60# recurve cut 3/16 past center. Get some shocked reactions from guys who are trying to tune up (The charts! the charts!).

I started with 250's and I can get the 250s to shoot, but they need to be longer and have 325 or more hangin up front.

[bentpole]

   

[Troy Breeding]

Shawn,

I think what I was trying to point out is the fact that just because you shoot a certain weight bow at a certain draw doesn't mean that someone else with the same weight and draw will shoot the same spine. If your bow is cut past center and the other fellows isn't then there is going to be a big difference in required spine. The reason I say this is I'm always seeing someone ask for spine help and others seems to say what they have will work without knowing all the facts.

Troy

[**DONOTDELETE**]

what kind of spine does the heritage 250 have? i'm looking at tuning some for a 60# HP long bow at 29" draw... i was thinking 30" arrow with 160 up front should do the trick..... but you guys think it needs more length?  I'm not a serious fan of extreme FOC.  15-20% is to my liking.

[Shawn Leonard]

Sorry Troy but I disagree, if some one is shooting say a Schafer that is 55#s at their 28" draw than someone who is shooting another schafer that is 56#s at that same 28"s than they can shoot the same spine arrow, even if a few pounds different they would just have to adjust point wieght a bit.  I agree others make recommendations that are way off base and I too will be wrong but not often. I have owned over 110 custom bows and I bet dolars to doughnuts that I can get most people very close, so close in fact that all they have to do is play with point weight a bit. Sorry but guys shooting 60# high performance bows cut past center do not need 340 spine arrows even full length unless they want to shoot a ton of point weight. Can they get good flight? Yes, but could get better!! I am not hear to argue the point, just give people something to think about. I guarantee people can get away with a carbon spined less than they think!! As I said this is not about a final tune of their arrows, just a starting point that is darned close. For the post above, even not knowing bow I can tell you that you will need more length or point weight. Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

OK, re-read Troys post and will say yes to some degree, but even bows that are say 50#s that are both  recurves whether cut to center or past will shoot a similar spined arrow, not a whole deflection apart. In other words they both will shoot a .500 spined arrow by adjusting point weight and length. Neither requires a .400 spine! You could shoot one but it would have to be long and nose heavy. Shawn

[Troy Breeding]

Shawn,

I agree with most of what your saying. My comparision of bows with different sight windows comes from seeing exactly what I read just afew minutes ago. On another thread a fellow ask about soine for a Bear Archery Bearcat in the mid 40's for weight if I remember right. Here again right off the bat someone suggested 2016 or 500 carbon. having been around afew of these bows I would suggest 1916 or 600 carbon.

As for me using 340's. Yes, I'm loading up the front. Currently I'm tipping my arrows with approx 450grs and thats about all they will handle without showing weak spine while bareshafting. I pull 29-29-1/2" and have them cut to 29-3/4". Like I said, I'm working for UEFOC.

Troy

[Canadabowyer]

SHAWN, I am with you on this one. Most of the bows I build are between 45#-55#, centercut D/R longbows and .600 spine carbons are what works. We find if we want more arrow weight we just stick some weed-wacker string in the shaft and away we go.

[Shawn Leonard]

Agreed Troy and those .600 spine will need to be weighted up front as well even at 30"s.