TBM Article says it all

[Wary Buck]

Such articles serve a purpose in that they make us re-examine what we are doing and take stock.  When I see an article such as this I generally read through it and think a bit.  In this case, I didn't agree with most of what he had to say but no harm in that since I engage in this kind of introspection often already.

Even after such, I choose to use aluminums and trail cameras and pop-up blinds among other tactics and trends and ideas and what-not.  My reasons may be different than yours.  I use aluminums because I don't like the inconsistency of woods.  I found an arrow that flies great out of my preferred bow and no longer have to "tinker" around with stuff (which I hate; others here love to tinker).  I prefer to stick to this one size of aluminum so I know any arrows I make this year will be the same as those I made 10 years ago.  Sometimes my quiver evolves into an ugly mess of leftover shafts from each batch, but they're all the same shaft, fletch configuration, weight.  One could argue that such a strategy is fairer to the game animals we pursue.  Or that by using aluminums (instead of wood), I save some time that can be better put to use by playing with my children or being a better dad or staying caught up on housework or my job or whatever.  

When someone tells me that my choice of some type of equipment is not "traditional" enough, I sometimes wonder how much time that person has on their hands?  (By the way, I do agree with Mark in that some lines need to be drawn--I hardly recognize the general "archery" equipment anymore).  But bickering about what is traditional enough annoys me.

I've not found using trail cameras to help me kill big bucks (maybe I'm too stupid to use 'em right, but I've NEVER found NE whitetails to have such predictable trails/times).  In fact, the same camera on the same scrape or trail has NEVER revealed to me a consistent pattern at all.  Often it will show ONE photo of a desired buck in a month.  Sheesh, some shortcut?  

But they do allow me an additional window into the outdoor world that I love.  They excite my children about looking through the SD cards.  How is that bad?  I actually endeavor/prefer to take a mature buck that I've already got a photo and shed antler from.  One could argue that such an approach is an even greater challenge than simply hunting without either.  Is that bad?  If you don't like it, fine, but don't make assumptions about the cameras that aren't true.

I recently used a homemade fiberglass antelope decoy I copied off the Mel Dutton design 20 years ago or so.  Does using that decoy mean I'm shortcutting...or does the fact that I made and painted it myself make it okay?  Would it be more traditional if it was made of wood instead of fiberglass?  Or should it be made of real fur like the Native Americans probably used?

I think sometimes we split too many hairs...and this article (rationalizing how it was okay for the author to shoot carbons in certain circumstances but not others) took that hair-splitting to another level.

And by the way, even out of a blind, no shot at a turkey is a slam dunk.  At least not in my experience.     :eek:    My girls have been totally turned on by hunting and seeing turkeys up close in a blind; something not likely possible if I were not using one.  Should I feel guilty for the use of the blind?  

The assumptions many make of trail cameras--in my experience anyway--are not accurate.  Just like the assumption the guy made of why and what Jason Wesbrock was shooting at the 3D event.

I don't know why I even feel the need to respond to this thread as I'm totally comfortable with the way I hunt but these are complicated subjects----or they can be very simple.  And simply put:  I shoot a longbow and have shot trad since 1988.  That, to me, is the big choice.  Whether I hunt from trees, blind, with wood or carbon, or using camo or plaid...relatively unimportant.  

And even with that said, my primary hunting partner is a compound hunter with traditional values.  She is trad-curious...and I suspect more compounders would be trad-curious if we didn't sometimes come across as stuffy hair-splitters.  

My long-winded two cents.  Sorry.

[kpete]

IT seems that huntin is a privelage, not a right. We are permitted by our nation to hunt recreationally. Not all people, in fact very few people have the privelages to hunt and fish as we do in our nation. Others are permitted to hunt with other equipment than I choose to use.  Some of it makes little difference, others seem to be an unfair advantage to me.  However, some one might think of my use of binoculars with my longbow as unfair use of optics.  And maybe the next person might think that if I really was a hunter I would walk to the mountains instead of using my vehicle or Helicopeter.(I don't really have one).  But some have used longbows and helicopters to get to the hunting location and thought themselves to be primative hunters.
So "the bus stops at a lot of different corners' and we all get on and off as we see fit.  There can be slobs who shoot stone age bows and ethical hunters using more modern gear.  There are ethical firearm hunters as well.
We have lots of technology available and we all use it it one form or another.  I think there is plenty to do in keeping our own "porches swept."

[Izzy]

TG is awesome in so many ways but I think that the diverse bunch of truly intelligent people that frequent this forum is TGs greatest asset. A lot of your responses are deep and I am glad to see how many people truly get it the way that I do if I am reading correctly. It seems that a common thread in these e responses is that Trad is about what makes us as individuals happy and lights our own individual fires. If finding this out this  the authors intention Id say he hit a grand slam. And if it wasnt his intention I hope he will gain some insight from the responses here.

[kpete]

In response to Mark Baker and considering Pope and Young, they shot firearms into brush to drive game into shooting position.  I don't particularly think I would care to do that for more reasons than because the game they were after were big cats.  They followed lions in the "fliver" until they charged, which would be against game laws in many places in our country.
And they were chastized by firearm hunters for having a rifle to back them up when hunting lions.  they hunted at night.   So again, not all of our heros are heroes at everything.
I have convictions and I speak them.
This very forum is a great use of technology.  
We can afford to hunt with bows and arrows for sport because we live in a WEALTHY technological nation.  We each choose to step back in time as far as we see fit.  Much of it depends on our past culture and environment.
It is kind like railing against logging as I sit in a wooden chair in a wood frame house.  Sure their are abuses to use of any natural resource and abuses should be addressed, but logging provides us with homes, work places, furniture, etc.  
Good hunting to you all.

[Swamp Yankee]

I'm always impressed with the conversations here.  This thread would have run off the road and into the weeds on page 1 elsewhere.  Kudos to everyone here!
Now lets all go fling some arrows, by whatever means floats your boat.

[Hit-or-Miss]

A healthy dose of Socratic Dialectic is good now and then, for both TBM and our entire "2 sticks and a string" culture.

[jsweka]

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
....but it is indeed about drawing a line in the sand.  
 

I agree with Mark.  

Compton's was established by drawing a line in the sand and has done great work in promoting traditional archery.

I bet not many on this form support crossbows in archery season.  I don't.  That's drawing a line in the sand.

Let's face it.  It's human nature to use more advanced technology to make things easier.  Some use carbon arrows because they can get them to shoot better than wood (i.e. it's easier to shoot well).  Folks buy and use trail cams to aid in scouting (i.e. making it easier to find that big buck).  If your reason for using a trail cam wasn't to help you scout before season, then why did you buy one? And don't say it's because you like to get pics of wildlife.  If that's really the case, why did you set that trail cam up over a scrape and would you NOT hunt in an area where you got a pic of a Pope and Young buck?  

Why won't we just admit we use technology because it makes things easier?  Is it because if we admit we do something beacuse it makes things easier, it hurts our foolish pride a bit?

I use manufactured Magnus broadheads because it's easier than knapping stone points.  I use pre-made wood shafts because it's easier than making my own. I use a glass laminated bow because they are easier to care for than a self bow and last longer. I use a treestand because it's easier to get into bow range of whitetails than being on the ground.  I use cover sents and camoflage for the same reason.  I'm comfortable saying I'm taking an easier route than those highly dedicated primitive guys who hunt with a selfbow carved out with only stone tools, knap their own heads, use cane shafts they harvested themselves, and hunt off the ground in plaid clothes. I'm not good enough yet to attempt such things - maybe someday if I'm not so lazy.

We should stop the "elitist" name calling because someone else drew their line in the sand a little farther back and voiced their opinions and reasons why.

[Scott Teaschner]

First of one of my big things with this guy is if your going to write something you better know what your talking about. Drawing a line in the sand is fine but know what you are talking about. How can you talk about wood arrows being the only fair way to hunt. Then say ok maybe just for elk can you use a crbon. Then say you know I really dont know any thing about wood arrows no body really does and there is really no good info out there. What the guy is telling me is he wrote an article with no accuracy. If you dont know some thing how can you have an oppinion on it? How can I put any stock in any thing else he wrote. For all I know the guy has never even shot a deer. I am guessing he never even hunted turkeys out of a blind. But I bet if he came to Wyoming it would be all right to hunt out of a pop up blind for antelope. See when you draw the line it should be straight and and not curve all over the place as his does. Also if you want me to listen  you better know what your talking about.
Scott Teaschner

[LarryWalling]

Tradgang! What a great site and great bunch of Folks!!!    

[Turkeys Fear Me]

"First they came for the communists (compound hunters),
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist (compound hunter).
 
Then they came for the trade unionists (gun hunters),
 and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist(gun hunter).
 
Then they came for the Jews (users of carbon arrows and tent blinds),
 and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew (user of carbon arrows and tent blinds).
 
Then they came for me (the guy with the line in the sand)
 and there was no one left to speak out for me."


Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)
 


Hopefully he won't mind my edits.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by jsweka:
 

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
....but it is indeed about drawing a line in the sand.  
 

I agree with Mark.  

Compton's was established by drawing a line in the sand and has done great work in promoting traditional archery.

 [/b]

I've been a member of Comptons since shortly after they formed. One of the things that drew me to them, and keeps me renewing every year is how they promote traditional archery. They figured out how to advance what they like without insulting everything outside their circle. I can't remember ever once reading a compound-bashing piece in their magazine, and that says a lot.

Just because one draws a line in the sand does not mean they have to urinate across it.

[Ben Maher]

Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
.

 Just because one draws a line in the sand does not mean they have to urinate across it.  

Mate , you are on a roll ...... that is gold !

[Wary Buck]

I agree...the urinating across the line quote of Jason's is classic.

I agreed with most of what jswelka posted except this:  
   

If your reason for using a trail cam wasn't to help you scout before season, then why did you buy one? And don't say it's because you like to get pics of wildlife. If that's really the case, why did you set that trail cam up over a scrape and would you NOT hunt in an area where you got a pic of a Pope and Young buck?  

Unfortunately, this statement assumes everyone's motive for a trail camera is one and only one thing, and if I said otherwise the accusation is that I'm lying.  That's erroneous.  Just as Kohler assumes a great deal about trail camera use that I find simply to be categorically untrue.  Who says hunters are no longer putting in "dirt time" as he said?  I sure am; if anything I'm putting in more.

Without turning this into a trail camera thread (only a small part of this puzzle), getting a quality photo of many bucks is what I like best.  This allows me to leave the still camera in my pack and focus more on the actual hunting instead of trying to do both (ever since I started passing up bucks back in '84 I began using a camera in the field).  I really DO love wildlife photos (and my in-field sketches), and I still do.

Does a trail cam help show what bucks are around?  Sure.  But I have seen three big bucks (through conventional scouting with binoculars) that I have NOT been able to get a single trail camera picture of all summer.  Not as easy as people think.

Nor has a camera ever revealed some secret pattern to me.  Ever.  Not as simple as some think.

Why set it up over a scrape?  Because I'm more interested in bucks than does.  

Suggesting one should NOT hunt in any area that a camera revealed a P&Y buck(?) is similar to Kohler suggesting hunting on public ground was somehow more noble than private or something like that.  Honestly, there is probably a 125"+ deer on most any decent-sized piece of good NE habitat that's not overhunted.  In some parts of the best deer states like IA or IL, there is probably a 135-140" deer calling each decent piece of habitat their home.

By the way, trail cam pics given landowners have been greatly appreciated for many.  And two years ago, when an absentee landowner suffered some theft, he called and asked if I'd bring my cameras out of the woods to the actual farmstead to try to help catch the scum.

[kojac]

The equipment doesn’t necessarily define the person but it does define the season.

When it come to seasons there needs to be a hard line drawn between bow season(primitive) and gun season (not so primitive).  

Forty years ago this wasn’t a big deal because hunting wasn’t even thought of as a industry but if we fast forward 40+ years,  now it’s a industry that makes a ton of money and that fuzzy line that was put in place several decades ago keeps getting pushed to the not so primitive side.  So now the effectiveness and the learning curve of the weapon is encroaching (some wild life agencies are thinking it may have surpassed) it’s imaginary line.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

Let's not forget that our bowhunting seasons had to be fought so hard for because many people believed at that time that the bow and arrow was not a viable hunting weapon. It wasn't looked at as a management tool at that time, as it's impact on total harvests was simply a "rounding error."

In this day and age, game departments are only concerned with taking ENOUGH deer each year and the seasons are set accordingly.

The popularity of modern archery equipment has taken bowhunting from a mere novelty to a bonifide management tool.  In many states, bowhunters account for 1/4 to 1/3 of all the deer harvested.  Those are real numbers.  Because of this, ALL bowhunters have clout.  ALL bowhunters have a voice.  All bowhunters benefit.

Take away the "modern" segment of the bowhunting community, as some people seem to want to do, and we will be left with about a week long season, or worse yet, seasons shared with firearms.  

Game departmens have a job to do, and that is to eliminate enough game to keep each species within what the environment can hold.  In many areas, we STILL aren't getting that job done.

As passionate as we all are about traditional bowhunting, the facts are simple.  Alone, we simply do not, nor will we ever have enough of an impact on game numbers to carry any real clout.  

Draw all the lines in the sand that you want but be careful what you wish for, you just might get it...or lose it.

[Drew]

The author is all over the place with his thinking and trying to blend his mentors/hero's thoughts/writings with his own, which seem to vary.

"The point here is that traditional bowhunters need to remember to draw that line somewhere, committing to self-reflection and analysis, because we are part of something bigger than ourselves"

Most of us did that the day we chose to use a stickbow in lieu of wheelie bows or horizontal bolt launchers.

[Scott Teaschner]

I am finally seeing some of the response that I was hopeing to see. That is you can have your own personal goals or standards. But that does not mean every thing else is wrong. People as they become more experianced may put more limitations on themselfs. Thats their choice. But when you start to narrow it down and start to get pushy its not right. We will loose privliages if we dont stand as one. That is a cold hard fact. I do not know how any one could read his article and not be just a little bit scared. Every thing I read said if had more power this is how it would be period. I like reading a story about some ones reflections. I saw no reflecting in his.
Scott Teaschner

[RkyMtn Joe]

I went through a period of time when I looked down on everyone who wasn't shooting something "Traditional"---at least as I defined it.  It finally hit me that MY definition was not the only sensible one out there. I am embarrassed to remember some of the attitudes I adopted back then, and hope I can do better now.

I shoot glass backed recurves, aluminum arrows (because I still have oodles of them and don't want to spend more money on carbons) and I use a tree stand.  Oh, and I usually wear some form of camo clothing.  But I am a "traditionalist".

Lots of interesting ideas here and I have enjoyed this thread.

[SELFBOW19953]

I just read "THE ARTICLE", and am really ambivolent towards it-nothing new here, it's been said many times before.  I had a trail camera set up-in a refuge area we put off limits to hunting.  I got photos of deer, turkey, fox, hawks, rabbits, raccoon, but only one of the bucks in a photo ended up in the bed of a truck.  I simply enjoyed the photos.

Someone, and I can't recall who (Jose Ortega y Gasset???), said that we all go through phases as hunters.  Phase 1 is going out, coming home empty handed and being frustrated.  Phase 2 is killing something.  Phase 3 is seeing how many kills you can make, not being selective at all. Phase 4 is becoming slective and only taking certain animals-all drakes, or bucks, or cockbirds.  Phase 5 is selecting a more difficult method of hunting-going from a 12 guage to a 20 guage, going traditional, going primitive.  The last phase is going out and choosing to observe more sand kill less.  Each of us progresses through the various phases, some stopping in one phase, some in another, and some actually getting to the final phase.  Does the phase you stop in make you a better, more ethical hunter than someone in a lower phase?  Does being selctive with a method of hunting that makes me routinely successful make me inferior to the hunter who wants to make his hunt more difficult?

[huntin_sparty]

I finally got around to reading the article and feel its not as much your wrong and I am right but just to think about choices and author lists his.  With that said I respectfully disagree on some items just like some of you would with my choices.  

Carbon arrows (long run cheaper for me mentioned in my earlier post) and trail cams.

The one item on trailcams I see argued alot and I disagree with is the aspect of because I see a big buck at 1am in a photo I am going to be guaranteed to be grilling his back straps once the season opens.  Unless I poach and shoot him at night with a spot light or until they create a robotrail cam that shoots a arrow or a .308 projectile that I operate from home through my kids Xbox (which I probably couldnt do anyhow!) and shoot him.  So I disagree that getting deer photographed and getting em eaten is a huge gap in reality!