off the shelf

[Bill Carlsen]

Jake: Wish I could see your set up and spend some time with you. It ain't that tough to do it and do it well.

As I read threads like this I keep seeing phrases like Slowebroke's..."I shoot off the shelf quite well and far and above "needed" for hunting accuracy at the ranges I shoot and have to say I agree with the simplicity and dependability for hunting"...and I think to myself...can you really be TOO accurate? I really don't understand the difference between real accuracy and "hunting accuracy". Can someone please explain? Is the goal to shoot as poorly as possible but just good enough to get the job done? Hitting where you are aiming is no different in a FITA tournament than in a hunting situation. And I would argue that in the hunting situation, because you are taking a life, the best possible accuracy you are capable of is essential. Is my thinking on this realistic or am I missing a bigger point? To me, I want the tracking after the shot to be simple. Getting the arrow to where I want it to be takes time, work, practice and experience. There is nothing simple about shooting accurately...except maybe years of doing it so that it feels natural.

[Archie]

I prefer an elevated rest on my BW recurve.  I do OK off the shelf with my BW longbow, and get great accuracy out to about 45-50 yards.  Probably further, but I've never shot much beyond that.  I believe that the merits of shooting off an elevated rest supercede those of shooting off the shelf, and it becomes obvious when using high-speed photography to compare the two.  

I hear a lot about "getting the arrow closer to the bow hand", but I don't go for it.  My eye always looks subconsciously down the shaft; I don't "point" off the web of my bow hand.

[Downtime]

I have been throwing arrows down range and hunting for a long time.  I have always liked the simple Hoyt and Bear rest.  Never had a problem with arrows falling off the shelf or draw noise.  But I do get better arrow flight and groups.  

As for the fact that the arrow released off the bow shelf is about 3/8th of an inch closer to the hand than a raised rest, which allows you to shoot better, let's get real.  You should then be praticing more.

Both type of setups work good. Just tune your arrows to your bow setup and pratice.

[Terry Lightle]

Cause I can

[Bill Carlsen]

And I can shoot mechanical or dull broadheads...but I don't!

[Charlie Lamb]

I suspect that if Fred Asbell hadn't reintroduced the off the shelf mentality, we'd all be shooting off some kind of elevated rest and doing quite well with it.

For those who are struggling with arrow flight or accuracy it's a simple thing to stick one on your bow and try it out. You might be surprised.

You're only gonna be out a couple of bucks and it could lead to shooting a couple of bucks.

To add to Bill Carlson's comments... if your accuracy is more important on targets than animals then you are probably a target archer, vice versa if your accuracy on game is more important you are a bowhunter.

I personally want to shoot as accurately as possible regardless of the target.

P.S.... if you are struggling with bow tuning you might give an elevated rest a try. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
   

[JAG]

Shelf?  Elevated rest?  Huh, I thought thats what my knuckle was for!
Accuracy is what you do the best. be it knuckle, shelf or rest.  
We owe it to the game we hunt to be as accurate as is humanly possible.  On the target range we owe it to ourselves to and the group we shoot with to be as accurate as possible.
Have a good season, and Keep your Heart and Arrows True!
Johnny/JAG

[dragonheart]

I understand what you are saying about accuracy.  Shoot the most accurate set up, period?  Should we drill a hole through a yew self-bow, put in a brass bushing for a Berger button and cavalier rest?  Probably not, but someone has probably tried it.   Not fitting to that style of equipment, and really probably not going to improve the accuracy of that style of equipment.

Some like an elevated rest and are more accurate with that.  Really there are other issues than the rest to tune a bow and arrow combination.  Longbows are shot off the shelf, by and large.  Rest are more an exception than the rule in longbows.  Longbows lends itself to that method of holding the arrow.  

For target accuracy look at some of the scores that Horace Ford shot that stood for so long in the FITA.  He was shooting off his knuckle with a string follow english yew self bow.  He was an exceptional archer, but accuracy can be obtained if the archer is willing to work at the tune of their bow and arrow combination regardless of arrowrest.  

We all should strive towards an accurate bow and arrow set-up.  As a archer, whether that is at game or on the course.  It is just so much more enjoyable of a sport to shoot a properly tuned bow and arrow combination, and you limit yourself so much without it.      

On the other hand, a recurve can be shot either way, and for many including myself, it is much easier to find an accurate tune with a flipper or brush rest on that style of bow.    

You can achieve great arrow flight and accuracy with both methods.

[Eugene Slagle]

I prefer off the shelf on my recurves, just a preference not a necessity.

When I had my Hoyt Dorado I eventually added the elevated rest on it & my shooting with that bow improved greatly but the love affair of a metal risor wore off & I was ready to let her go.

Shooting off of a shelf or a elevated rest is more of a preference to most depending on what they want to achieve, I can shoot with the bow nearly canted all the way to the left & still not have the arrow fall off the shelf or rest, it is all in how you grip the string & be consistent in the grip each time you prepare to & follow through your shot sequence.

Elevated rests especially the ones that have some adjustment to them give the archer more flexibility to tuning than on the shelf but after that the advantage is gone because it is still up to the archer with the proper arrow to make the shot count.

[Hoyt]

I still use a Hoyt flipper rest just as I did back in the early 60's before traditional archery.

[dragonheart]

There are other factors to consider in a hunting bow.  Just sticking an elevated rest on a bow may lead to other issues.  Flipper rest arms can get hung on packs, clothing, etc.  The arms can get bent out of shape, and over time will wear through.  I once shot a springy rest so much that it wore the wire into!  Berger buttons can get froze up and dont do well filled with mud if you drop your bow (stuff happens hunting!).  Adhesives can fail on stick on rest in wet conditons, especially over time.  I remember a picture of Paul Schafer with a wonderful whitetail and you can see the surgical adhesive tape holding his arrow rest on the bow.  Durability and being able to weather the elements are important considerations in the set up of a hunting bow.  

Here is an idea for a brush rest that comes from Sergio here on TG.  It is durable, dependable, and give the "advantage" of the elevated rest.  I use barge cement of 3-M adhesive on the calf hair to cover and reinforce the brush rest from coming off in the elements.  It is a quiet arrow rest to shoot.  It also looks cool on a recurve.  

     

[ChrisM]

The point about the arrow being closer to the bow hand has to do with left and right impacts.  If you do not cant the bow the same way every shot the further from the pivot point (web of hand on a high wrist grip) the arrow is the more likely to miss some left to right.  Since I hunt primaraly I can't be certain that I will be able to cant the bow the same way on all shot opportunities.  This distance away from the pivot is one of the reasons I believe that longbow shooters struggle sometimes with accuracy as the heel down grip makes the pivot as much as 3" away from the arrow when shot off the shelf.  Well thats what I think anyway.

[dragonheart]

Originally posted by ChrisM:
The point about the arrow being closer to the bow hand has to do with left and right impacts.  If you do not cant the bow the same way every shot the further from the pivot point (web of hand on a high wrist grip) the arrow is the more likely to miss some left to right.  Since I hunt primaraly I can't be certain that I will be able to cant the bow the same way on all shot opportunities.  This distance away from the pivot is one of the reasons I believe that longbow shooters struggle sometimes with accuracy as the heel down grip makes the pivot as much as 3" away from the arrow when shot off the shelf.  Well thats what I think anyway.

I believe that is why I like an elevated rest on a recurve bow.  With an arrowrest on a recurve, it is a similiar relationship between the bowhand, arrow, and the heel down position of my longbow vs a recurve grip.

[Javi]

gadgets... gadgets... gadgets... everyone has their own tolerance for gadgets..   :D

Mine don't include flippers, Bergers, brushes or even feather rests.. I strain my tolerance with velcro...

[Shakes.602]

YIKES!!  I didnt Aim to Stir a Pot O' Poop with my Comment!! Just going by what I have been  TOLD  for Years, Ok?? Not Doubting what Your saying One Bit, I was just Told "Vanes for Wheelies, Feathers for Traditional Equipment."  

[Bill Carlsen]

My real concern is not that anyone shoots off the shelf or an elevated rest. It's about obtaining the best accuracy. What the h..l is "hunting accuracy" and how is it different than any other kind of accuracy? The implication is that it is less than perfect or less than one is really capable of achieving given the time and effort to truly tune equipment and practice good fundamentals.

Dragonheart.... never had a plunger freeze up on me or get full of mud when I dropped my bow. Mine are made of brass and stainless steel and have never failed me in any way. Cheap ones would do that but not the ones I use.

I guess the real question is, when do you feel satisfied that you have achieved the highest level of accuracy you are capable of? And if you are having trouble getting there how willing are you to try something that might get you there? Is "hunting accuracy" a real thing? I really don't get it...accuracy is accuracy and I don't understand why some resist even trying something that just might make a big difference.

[AdamH]

All I shoot are L/B's, I like to keep things simple, I can't even imagine some other kind of rest other than the shelf, let alone plastic vanes, but thats just me, the shelf with feathers works just fine, why change, not to mention, simplicity and of course more Traditional, but again, thats just me ...

[Javi]

It’s as simple as this… one should be able to hit a dime at twenty yards if they practice enough and their equipment is well suited to that game, but you do not preclude those who can only hit a sliver dollar simply because they suck by your standards..

The kill zone on a deer is what? … 8” or so… and if someone can consistently put their first arrow of the day in that circle, should they be banned from hunting because they lack the ability, time, patience, experience or knowledge to hit that dime..

As for all them gadgets, I’ve been there and I got t-shirts and tax returns to prove it.. You don’t need the gadgets to shoot well; they just make it easier… I remember when the Berger button first came out.. there were a bunch of bows drilled and brass plugs installed but the top shooters scores didn’t skyrocket to perfect simply because the screwed a plunger button into their riser… What happened was it became easier to tune an arrow to fit the bow… Easier is the key word here.. not better..

Kind of like paper tuning…. which was invented by lazy people who didn’t want to spend the time to tune the old way…

[fazhu]

Wow!  Thanks for all the great response everyone.  I think I will try a rest but as for the vanes....I just don't feel 'em.  Kinda like fiberglass saddlebags on a Harley.  Thanks again.

[dragonheart]

Only the individual can decide how many of those "add ons" he needs to be proficient with his hunting weapon.  The accuracy discussion is a whole other topic in itself.