weight vs speed

[compound_convert]

never mind i just read it it will still shoot pretty  flat

[Huntschool]

Its a practice thing.  Here are a cople extra "fine points" I know Looper and Spectre would give you:

1. Be sure your draw and anchor are as        perfectly repeatable as possible.

2. Body form must also be the same each shot.  Do not torque the bow with hand pressure or allow the bow arm to jump away on release....

3. Your aiming technique comes from the above two.  So, if those are bad your method of "aiming" will also suffer.

Good luck...  it really is fun

[Rob DiStefano]

lots of caveats - be SURE of your draw length.  be SURE you employ a consistent form.  variations of either will make arrow selection more difficult if not impossible,

imho, what's most important about a hunting arrow is that it's no less than 9gpp for the bow that launches it, that the arrow flies straight and true as if it was on rails, and that the c-o-c broadhead is very sharp.  nothing else matters much.  all this business of foc and spine and shaft material and whatnot is just stuff to talk about and occupy space and time.

getting an arrow to flight straight and be consistently accurate starts and ends with the archer, not so much the arrow.

with stick bow arrows, speed doesn't kill - super sharp points stuck in the critter's right spot is what matters most.  you do what you have to do for consistent accuracy at hunting distances, within hunting venues.

with arrow selection, all of this always boils down to personal testing.  there is no way around this.  nope.  uh uh.    

[Looper]

Rick, what they said about a consistent form and anchor point is exactly right. Take a look at Terry's form clock in the Shooter's Forum. He gives a great visual for what a proper form looks like.  Don't be afraid to post a video of yourself for some constructive criticism.

You also need to make sure you don't torque the string. You must have a relaxed string hand. Too much tension will make it impossible to get good arrow flight.

Now, regarding your point of impact vs your point of aim, a fletched arrow with a field tip is going to go where you aim it, regardless of whether the spine is right or not. An incorrectly spined arrow, or having the wrong nock height, will cause the arrow to wobble, but it will still go where you aim it. You can shoot a wide variety of spines out of the same bow and still get a good group. They may not all fly correctly, but they'll all still go where you aim them. You can, however get so far off in spine or get your nock point so low, that the arrow will hit the riser. You'll hear a click and then all bets are off on the accuracy. Of course, at longer distances, the heavier the arrow, the more drop you'll have.

When you add a broadhead, or shoot a bareshaft, your tuning, or lack of it, is revealed. Take a look at this link:   http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html   and educate yourself.  There is a lot of good information there. There are other good methods, like paper tuning, that work just as well.

At this point, I think you're setup will be close enough that you can concentrate on developing a good form, a good release, and getting your eye accustomed to the arrow flight. You can always fine tune later. In fact, I'd just cut those 2219s to 32", put on some 145 grain field points and start shooting. I'd wait to get broadheads, until you are sure of what you'll need. You might find that you need a form change and end up changing your draw length.

Keep us posted as to how things go for you. Put in the time and you'll be ready to hunt in no time. Don't rush it, though. This is a lifelong pursuit and you'll save yourself a lot of headache by developing good habits early on.

[Archie]

The long draw length can be a real wild card.  Stu's calculator did nothing but confuse me, and gave no good help.  Evidently my form/release/style wasn't programmed in by Stu.

I draw 31" and shoot a 48# @ 31" Black Widow longbow, and bareshaft tuned a full-length 2216 by going all the way up to 250 grain field points.  I've got some 2117's, and if I remember correctly, at full-length I bareshafted them to around 175 grains up front.  The 2216s end up at 730 grains, but they fly true.  With 3-blade Wensel Woodsmans, they shoot straight on from 15 yards all the way out to 50 yards, with no left/right adjustments.  And the bow is silent, due to the extremely heavy arrow.

Archie

[Looper]

Archie, I have a long draw, too, and the calculator works pretty well for me. I just plugged your numbers in, and it looks like the 2117s with 175 grains is pretty darn close to what you need. Some variable can make a big difference in the recommended spine. Cut from center is a big one. So is the string type. One thing I think it doesn't account for is extra stuff hanging on the string. Silencers, extra serving wraps, extra nocks, etc. can have a pretty big effect.

I also think it's important to have accurate measurements. Both for actual draw length, and for the poundage of the bow. It can't, however account for a rough release, a little creep before the shot, torquing the bow, or anything else the shooter does.

I personally think it's a great tool, and have found it to be accurate for me on several different bows with several arrow types.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by looper:
Archie, I have a long draw, too, and the calculator works pretty well for me. I just plugged your numbers in, and it looks like the 2117s with 175 grains is pretty darn close to what you need. Some variable can make a big difference in the recommended spine. Cut from center is a big one. So is the string type. One thing I think it doesn't account for is extra stuff hanging on the string. Silencers, extra serving wraps, extra nocks, etc. can have a pretty big effect.

I also think it's important to have accurate measurements. Both for actual draw length, and for the poundage of the bow. It can't, however account for a rough release, a little creep before the shot, torquing the bow, or anything else the shooter does.

I personally think it's a great tool, and have found it to be accurate for me on several different bows with several arrow types.

I think the calculator is the cats ass! I love it.

[Archie]

I'm not knocking the calculator at all, not a bit.  But when I tried my 2216s, it only caused me a lot of frustration, several phone calls to Black Widow, and PMs to some tradgangers and Widowwallers that seemed to be well-versed in bow/arrow tuning.  Eventually I had to reject Stu on the 2216s and go with what was bareshafting correctly for me.  I half-expected to hear some responses to that last post to the tune of, "... there's no way those 2216s need that much weight up front for your setup, Archie!"  

I didn't plug in the 2117s, because I didn't have many to shoot, but I have dozens of new 2216 shafts I wanted to make work.  

Funny side note:  As a result of a couple goofy purchases, I ended up with a dozen of both 2117s and 2216s with uni-nocks, the only I've ever had.  The shafts are identical, same camo & nocks.  Inserts were attached to the shafts in a little baggie, so that didn't clue me in, either.   When I was bareshafting, I thought I had a 2117, but had accidentally grabbed a 2216.  I worked with that thing for days, changing tip weights and shooting, shooting, shooting the full-length shaft.  I had never shot 2117s before, but could not figure out HOW IN THE WORLD it was bareshafting identically to the 2216s!  I figured it out eventually, but for a while, I thought I must have severely messed-up form or something.

[Rob DiStefano]

charts and software calculators work perfectly for some and not at all for others.  what does that tell you?  

[Archie]

Rob, I think that Stu can be a great place to start, but I personally feel that some sort of bareshaft tuning is NECESSARY to end up with the right set-up.  By the way, here's a video of my form:

 

My release may not be olympics-clean, but I don't have bad form, bad enough to be outside of the parameters of a calculator's margin of error.

[Night Wing]

One thing to consider when choosing a 2219. Easton doesn't make this size anymore.

[compound_convert]

ok cut the arrows ( 2117 ) now there at 32''. went n got a few new field points that range from 125 to 175 will be checking those today. my form is pretty much the same. i do get good groupings mostly in the range of 2-3 inches @ 20 yards hope to tighten them up though. i just want to thank every1 for all there help. i want to learn this sport pretty good so i may pass it down n teach the little ones. 1 thing i have noticed though you cant learn this all in 1 day. all though i try        

[Shawn Leonard]

Have to agree with Rob, Stus calculator has never worked for me, not even close as a matter of fact.  Nothing like good old experimenting on your own. Take everything with a grain of salt, Spectre for example in his fir post had no clue you were close with spine, due to your long draw and the increased weight because of it. Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

Should also say that if you are grouping 2-3"s at 20 yards with good flight, you are one of the better shots out there. Most trad guys cannot do that consistently with 3 or 4 arrow groups. 10-15, yes but I have shot with a lot of folks and most(90%) cannot do that all the time. Shawn

[Rob DiStefano]

anyone who can consistently group 3" at 20 yards with a bare stick bow is in serious contention for the trad world indoor archery title.   :D

[Looper]

Rick, that is stellar shooting. You might just be a prodigy. I think I'd be finding some 3d tournaments to enter.

[Spectre]

Decided to bite my lip.

[compound_convert]

not like that guys been shooting for compound for a while i use three arrows. i do the have the ones that go way off. not saying that that im the best or even good but at a target im ok n confident. its all about not rushing the shot, n thats a known distance. you got to be good when your an active duty scout sniper, the same basics are used from rifle shooting. and i was not shooting like that right off the top, got to watch the what i say here. on another note. the 2219 have quieted the bow but the arrows r kicking to the bottom and right. another question i shot some plastic vanes they were ok, but was told that they through the arrow off. thanks for all the help, n i will never bring the grouping size again, promise.

[LeeBishop]

Compound Convert, don't worry man.

I think a lot of people worry too much about little things. Howard Hill said to not worry about the quirks of a bow and to just shoot it.  That's what I do.

I recently started shooting a recurve bow for the first time in my life too. I have been using compound bows since I was 12 years old and there is just NO challenge to them.

And it took me a few tries to get the hang of the recurve bow. But, I shoot pretty decently, I think.  I'm shooting 4-5 inch shot groups at 20 yards myself with a few strays every once in a while.

My broadheads fly better than my field points, so I have to change the weight on the field points.  It's not an emergency though.

And I think you're right when it comes to basic marksmanship. When you have a foundation in the principles of something like shooting then you can generally apply it to other things like archery as well.

I'm not a trained sniper myself though. I'm just a guy in Arkansas. I've taught myself how to do everything with recreational sports that I practice. I didn't grow up with a dad that knew anything about the woods, fish, guns or bows.

Last year I knocked out a culling buck at 225 yrds running approx 20mph with a brain shot with a "weak" .270.  That's just because I practice and I try to remain confident in my abilities. It also helps to know the ballistics of your ammunition and the drop rate at distance.

So, I have no doubt that you've transitioned to traditional archery pretty well. Have fun with it. I know it's excited me and given me a new challenge.

I wouldn't worry too much about the technical mumbo jumbo. The indians didn't have weight charts and they killed plenty of wild game with chert arrowheads that all weighed differently.

I can't give you any advice, because I'm new to this as well, but just remain confident in your abilities and have fun with it. It's just a new challenge.

The great Japanese ronin samurai Miyamoto Musashi said once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. Pretty much, once you devote yourself to mastering one thing and do it well, you have a better ability of mastering other crafts and expanding your abilities. You develop your discipline and know how to master your crafts.

Good luck with this season.

[Looper]

Rick, I hear you. We're just messing with you. There are a lot of good shots on here. Some are tournament winners.

Yes, plastic vanes will give you some odd flight. They will bounce off the riser and give you some odd flight, especially at close distances. Some use them with a stand off type arrow rest. They are waterproof, but they are louder than feathers. Don't try to tune your bow with them, if your shooting off the shelf.

Are you shooting those 2219s bareshafted, or with fletching? If, bareshaft, they are hitting low and right, that would show a high nock and a weak spine. However, a nock point that is too low will cause the shaft to hit off the shelf.

When you bareshaft, only change one variable at a time. First, you want to get the nock height in the correct spot. Then you can work on getting the windage right. Also, make sure you make your fletched comparison arrows exactly the same as the bare shaft. Length, insert, point weight all have to be identical.

It's alright to post about your groups. A lot of us post pictures and videos all the time.