Way over spined... Why?

[plentycoupe]

Just want to know if anyone else gets the results that I do.

I am bare shaft tuning and I can only get shafts that "should" according to all I have read, be WAY overspined to fly well.

I read tons on people posting how much lighter in spine most people could go but I try it and no way.

Are there others on here with the same results?

For example I am shooting a 55@27 blacktail recurve.
I draw 29.5 so am figuring 62lbs.

A 30.5 inch arrow with .319 spine
50 grain brass insert
With 200 grn point bareshaft hitting far right
175 right
125 almost together
I tried 300 grn fp just to make sure I wasn't getting a false weak reading, same thing...way right of fletched.

Problem is, besides myself telling me that this shouldn't be happening, is the shafts are only 8.9grns per inch so overall weight is only 446 plus nock and feathers. That is only 7 grns per pound.

This really is weighing on my mind and giving me a ton of trouble finding the correct arrows.

Thanks for your time.

[TNstickn]

Your not going to get that shaft heavy enough, say 9 gpi. The longer your shaft is, over the 28 inch or 26 inch, your shafts are spined at. The weaker they will act. I think that's why your spine is confusing you. Pick a stiffer spine, then add your weight up front to get where you need/want to be.

[R. W. Mackey]

Sounds like it's telling you to get a stiffer arrow. My personal favorite for heaview wt. bows is the Beeman MFX Classic, it's 11.2 gr. per inch, get it in the 340 series (300 spine) put a bunch of weight up front ( I shoot 300 gr., 250 gr. head and 50 gr. brass insert) and start full length.  Cut about 1/4" at a time till it gets right. I would bet you can shoot this arrow, should be aroung 680 gr. and about 24 FOC. I have a 29.5" draw and shoot this exact arrow, had to trim mine to 30.75"  to tune.  Good luck  RW.

[Kentucky Jeff]

You have a longer draw than most folks and if you read the advice of people with 27-28" draw lengths you will not get close.  If you are shooting 30-31" arrows there is a huge difference between your arrows and someone who shoots 28-29" arrows.  

If you tune arrows by cutting shaft you will find 1/4" can make a big difference with carbons.

I shoot 31" arrows and have recently been using the Arrow Dynamics Hammer Head Lites for my bows in the 50-58# range.  These are forward weighted tapered shafts and with 125grain broadheads and a standard 31 grain insert I found you really do not need to add weight to the shafts to get the weight forward you want or to get enough weight/pound of draw.  

I also found the Tapered Shafts are VERY forgiving compared to straight carbons and tune in a much broader range of draw weights.  I use the Hammer Head Lights for four different bows and they bareshaft close to bullet points in all four.

I use the Hammer Head standard shafts for my bows in the mid 60# to 70# range with nothing more than 125 grain broadheads and standard glue in aluminum adaptors...

Again, because of the design/construction of the shaft they are very easy to tune.  The thin rear section of the shaft clears the riser and virtually eliminates the problems of archer's paradox (left to right contact with the riser),  The heavy front end adds weight up front, and strengthens the front of the shaft adding to strength and durability up front.  

I'm sold.

[Friend]

Much depends on what you wish to realistically wish to achieve in conjunction with the reduced required arrow specifications avaliabile due to your long draw length.

May wish to consider the Gold Tip Big Game 200 Black.

Arrow - 31"
Insert - 50 gn
Point - 250 gn
Tot wt - ~677 or 10.7 gpp
FOC - 21%
The arrow spine and the dynamic spine required by the bow are w/i 1#.

[Bobaru]

Not for nothing, but forget the magic 9 grain per pound stuff.  Get the arrow that shoots like a dart, and shoots quiet.  Then go kill a bear.  

I just shot a bear with an arrow that was 7 grains per pound out of a Damon Howett Hunter drawing about 58 lb.  It did more job than was needed.  In fact, some guys in camp that shot their bears with 180 grain 30-'06 had far less damage to their bears than I had.  

If you're tuned, you're tuned.  End of story.

[Night Wing]

I have two 66" Blacktail TD recurves and their shelves are cut 3/16" (-3/16) past center. I use a velcro side plate which is 1/8" (+2/16) thick. I also have a 30" draw length and I shoot 32" BOP (back of point) 2212 aluminum arrows with a 75 grain point weight. Both bows also have the same 7 3/4" brace height.

My 42# bow is spot on with Stu's calculator with a Form Factor reading of (0). My 37# bow is quite the opposite. My form reading with it is (+9). For some reason, the 37# bow really likes a stiff arrow.

I never look at the Form Factor reading with Stu's calculator until I have the bow I'm shooting with, tuned to perfection. That's when I look at the Form Factor reading and tweak it if it's off from zero (0).

On a side note, when I decided to re-fletch the arrow, I shot the bare shaft with both bows and I still get the same results which match Stu's calculator.

Many people who own a Blacktail recurve, "most" of them tell me their bow likes a stiff arrow too whether they are shooting a carbon or aluminum arrow.

[scedvm]

Plentycoupe, Blacktails take very stiff arrows in my experience also.  I draw 31" and my 58# Blacktail needs a 31.75" .300 spine with only 145gr up front and it is still a touch weak.  If I try to shoot a bareshaft with even 200-225gr up front it will shoot very weak almost to the point it is dangerous, and a .320 or .340 spine can't tune and maintain a heavy enough arrow.  You might try a .300 spine and see if you can get a little more arrow weight.  Good luck....Shawn

[monterey]

You could try a gradual build out of your strike plate while using the broadhead of your choice.

[Shawn Leonard]

Owned a Blacktail for years, it was 65#s at my 28.5" draw, shot 29.5" .400 spine with 225 grains up front, sorry but I believe something is screwie, you are still overspined. Shoot it thru paper at about 15 ft. with a fletched shaft and see what type of tear ya get. Shawn

[plentycoupe]

Thanks for all the reply's. I am limited on supplies as am deployed right now.

Shawn: I do have 5575's that I cut to 31". In order to get them to bareshaft I have to use 125 points and that is way to light. I respect your opinion as it is what had me racking my brain so much. However, comma, I just don't think it works with me and how I shoot.

I will keep you up to date on the results I get.

Thanks again  all.

Jason

[Looper]

Jason, what kind of shafts are those that you mentioned in your first post? Did you spine them yourself? It's not unheard of for some shafts to be marked wrong.

If you're able to move your impact point back to center with the 125 grain heads, I don't see what's so screwy. The right combo with that particular shaft is a 125 grain head. You'll just need something different to get the weight you want.

I know Shawn is going to cringe at this, but the infamous Stu's calculator has you pretty close with your 5575/125 grain combo.

I disagree that you should just use a 7 gpp arrow. There is a reason that most bowyers won't guarantee a bow that is shot with less than 8 gpp. You'll need weight, especially since you are in Alaska.

If I were you, I'd just get some AD Hammerheads or the AD Trads. They'll allow you to use a lot of different point weights and the Hammerheads, in particular are very tough.  They'll give you good weight, too.  My full length Hammerheads, with a cap wrap, 4x4 fletch, the stock aluminum insert, and no point weigh 500 grains.

[Got2strum]

Gold Tip Big Game 100's should be more than stiff enough and let you get plenty of weight up front. I had 30.5" arrows with 100gr brass inserts and 175gr heads flying excellent from a 61#@27" Schafer being drawn to 30". Probably 70# at that draw and the arrows weigh 700grns. I was bare shafting them at 30yrds!

[Rob DiStefano]

as much hasta do with the archer as with the arrow shaft, mebbe lots more.  do whatever it takes to get consistently well flying arrows that are accurate for you, not me or anyone else.  this goes beyond the charts and software helpers - it all boils down to you.  all of this is "an experiment of one" and only you can do it first hand.

[Easykeeper]

My favorite bow is a 64" Blacktail TD, 54#@28".  I draw about 29" so the weight is probably more like 56# at full draw.  I'm shooting ACC 3-60s which are listed as .340 spine and have them cut 30.75" from bottom of nock to base of point.  They will group bare shafts with feathered using a 300grain point.  265 grain points work too but start to group a bit left(stiff)  Going down to 175 grain tips and the bare shafts are definitely stiff.  If I go down to 3-49 (.400 spine), I have to drop the point weight lower than I want.  I will say that regardless of what the bare shafts do, either of these shafts fly well when fletched with three 5" feathers and shoot broadheads (265-300gr. with the 3-60s, 125-145gr. with the 3-49) well.  However the 3-60s with 300 grain points (the combination that bare shafts well) is the quietest (heaviest), gives the best arrow flight, and is most forgiving of a bad release.

Comparing my setup with yours, I can see where you might be under spined.  The only way to know is try something stiffer.  My Blacktail (or the way I shoot it) likes a stiff shaft.  I've experimented with AD Hammerheads and heavy points, they work well too.  I'd ignore what other people use and what the charts show.  Shoot whatever works for you.The arrow you need is dependent on a lot of variables, yours and the bow.

[ti-guy]

It might be in the form or the way we shoot. I've noted that when I make a (bad) release that is not the way I do it properly, it makes the arrow fly like an under or over spined.

[Don Stokes]

When I was in the arrow shaft business I bare-shaft matched hundreds of folks. The charts, calculators, etc. are a good starting point, but individuals and their bows don't always fit. You shouldn't be too surprised if the "standard" doesn't work for you. The way you grip the bow, the way you release, how your bow is set up- all of these things can affect your results. Go with what works, and forget the average.

[Rob DiStefano]

+1 - folks, don is SO right on the money!  

[SCATTERSHOT]

monterey nailed it. Sounds like your bow is cut past center. You can shoot those shafts if you build out your sideplate a little. Say, a piece of bootlace or a toothpick under the strike plate.

Good luck!

[LimBender]

My arrow tuning results are similar and I am a short drawer. Bareshaft shooting Zipper SXT 51@27" (about my dl) and 30.5" GT 55/75 XTs with 250 up front came out consistently underspined. Couldn't believe it, but am shooting much better now at about 28.5"

After using Stu's and reading all the threads, I thought I would be overspined.  It was surprising, so Don appears to know that of which he speaks.   :D