Why 20 yds, Are we Mental???

[YORNOC]

Again, hunting shot distance has nothing to do with accuracy for me. All about my personal ethic shot zone. As said in other thread, just because I can hit a bullseye at 50 yards doesn't mean I should send an arrow at a moving game animal at that distance. Everybody has seen what game reaction can do at 20 yards, at 50 a perfect shot can go from heart to back leg in a split second of air travel time. I personally choose to not take that chance.
Wounding game is not high on my list of accomplishments.
I like Bill's response above. Very personal choices, go with what feels right for you.

[Rob DiStefano]

the further the shooter is from the mark, the greater the angle of failure to hit the mark.  this is true of any aiming sport, particularly free form aiming sports such as archery, darts, bowling, baseball, basketball, etc.  

stay within your consistent accuracy range.  

wanna shoot more consistently at 30 yards instead of 20?  that's a matter of consistency of mind and tackle.  lotta folks are capable of achieving such a goal, but don't have the time for either.

[Javi]

It isn’t about the distance to the game for me; it is about the state of the game and the conditions. Many times I’ve not taken a shot at 10 yards simply because the game was on alert and the shot just wasn’t right but I’ve also taken game at much longer distances because the conditions were perfect for that shot.  Many of you talk about accuracy as if it is a bad thing but to me being accurate is what it is all about, once I have drawn the bow it is about shooting a target, the hunting is done…  
Know your limitations and shoot within them, practice to be better and learn to read the animal… sometimes that 10 yard shot is not the best choice…
I’ve been shooting targets and hunting for 50 years and I can assure you that today’s traditional shooters are NOT better than those of yesterday and the average traditional hunter of today is nowhere near as good as those of 50 years ago.. That isn’t necessarily the fault of the archer, but more a product of today’s environment. Fifty years ago if you were into archery it was a lifestyle for most, not just one of their hobbies. And before you get all upset, I know that for some it is still a lifestyle and outside of work it is their life, but the average young folks of today have too many outside activities to compete with archery. Just look at the club I shoot at, fifty years ago you could find the same 20 or so people there nearly any summer evening shooting and walking the trails. Sunday afternoon there would be families picnicking and shooting together, now you may see one or two people on a Sunday and they are in a hurry because the football game is starting.. Folks just don’t have time anymore.

[Gray Buffalo]

In the old days I shot a wheel bow and could hold a 6” group at 100 yards. Back then I killed all my game at 15 yards and under. In 1976 I went back to the long bow and still kill all my game at 15 yards and under. Why would someone shoot beyond 20 yards. It seems to me that some are bringing their wheel bow mentally with them into TRAD Archery. Getting close to the pray is the best part of the game.

[Shawn Leonard]

K-Mag has it for me, it is all about how I feel about the shot! Sometimes the greenlight comes on at 40-50 yards and sometimes it does not at 10 yards. I never think distance but go with my gut feeling. Killed deer at 3ft. and also at 47-48 yards with my recurves. I always love what Javi(Mike) hasto say, sometimes I do not agree but always respect his opinions very highly, he is dead on about this one, I have watched hundreds of guys and gals shoot the last 10 years and talk about hunting, too be honest 70% of them should not be allowed in the woods with a LB or recurve. Sorry but it ain't they are terrible shots but out of those 70% half of them have arrows that are so badly matched to their bows I worry about penetration and sharp broadheads!! I do agree it is about getting close and I shoot most of my deer 10-12 yards, but if it feels right 45-50 is not out of the question. Shawn

[Groundpounder]

the problem with that reasoning if your off an inch at 10 yards so you would be off 2 inches at 20 yards is that a tradbow isnt gonna be like a rifle  ,your gonna start to have a lot faster drop off, and you would have to compensate for that but def. a mental thing that could be overcome with practice.

[YORNOC]

Originally posted by TSP:
Targets are for fun, hunting is for real.  When targets suffer and die slowly and painfully from poor shot placement then maybe shooters might take the ethics issue more seriously.  Target practice, and attempting to kill real animals, are two entirely different exercises that should be treated accordingly.

I wonder how many that swear by the right to go long on critters (just because they can do it in practice) would do so if, say, they forfeited something valuable to them for every bad shot on animals that they made (their bow, car, pet, paycheck, a piece of their anatomy equitable to the unfortunate animals loss, etc.).  How would it feel to know that, before you shoot, the arrow you are about to release will have REAL consequences...to YOU?  Still think those long lobs are as attractive in that situation?

There are no hard lines when it comes to hunter ethics.  The shooter is free to make their own choices and just walk away from the outcome, regardless of what it is.  As an ethical archer all one can do is hope that, for the bad actors or those that just don't know any better, there's a lesson learned somewhere along the line.

Jees, did you hit my thoughts right!  Too many people often walk away never to look back at a poor shot. Who cares if the animal crawls away to suffer and die slow....just go and take another shot tomorrow.   I CARE. And I'm glad I do.

[Shawn Leonard]

YORNOC, I would rather shoot at a calm deer at 40, than a deer that tense and at 20. The sound of a trad bow at 35-40 seldoms spooks a deer real bad if not on alert, at 20 the closeness of the sound can having them reacating quite differently. Again, not condoning long shots, but again if it feels right I shoot. I agree wholeheartedly with Bill, todays trad shooters are no where near as good as ones of the 50's,60's and into the 70's.  Bill and I have attended the same shoot for years and Bill can shoot and I would think he would say the same of me, but we see acouple hundred people at this shoot and as I said 70% of them should not be allowed to hunt live game! Shawn

[joe skipp]

I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

[Javi]

Originally posted by joe skipp:
I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

Right on... Them old boys ain't doing nothing but clapping for your post.. that's what's shakin the ground...  :D

[Bowwild]

The greater the distance to the target the more room there is for the mind to wander .... with your arrow in tow.

Form, concentration, tuning, or aiming errors at a short distance will be magnified geometrically at greater distances. Imagine a cone from your nock beyond the target. If you're off an inch at 10 you'll be off more than double (if everything is the same) at 20. This is one reason shooting at longer distances is a good way to discover areas the archer can improve -- your areas needing improvement are more evident.

I remember the late 60's and early 70's and the recurve shooters. On average I think they were much better than the average recurve shooters today.  While there are great shooters today I also believe many compound fellows develop shooting issues and go 'traditional' to have an excuse for missing. I'm sure I know far more about how one is supposed to shoot than I did in those days, but I was a much better shot at age 16-20 than I am today (dad burn it!).

Where I hunt a clear shot greater than 20 yards is uncommon. In the woods a 20 yard shot can seem much further. I'm extremely reluctant (read no way) to shoot more than a yard or two past 20 on white-tails. I'll admit, I'm not a good enough shot with my recurves to be shooting 25+ yards. However, that's not the whole story. When I hunted with compounds I was very confident of 50 yard, even 80 yard target shots (known yardage). But, in 34 years hunting with them I only took 2 shots longer than 30 yards -- killed em both.

As others have said, an unalarmed deer can randomly move and turn otherwise great shot execution into a miss or worse. My self-imposed limit is 20 + or - 1-3 yards. I prefer 15 yards over 10 (I don't like deer hearing the bowstring rustle my nose hairs).

I need to do what I did for years with the compound (again as others have stated above).  Next practice season (I ain't changing anything mid-season) I need to shoot a lot more at 40-50 yards with the recurve to make the 20 and 25 feel like gimme shots.  

I think it is very important for an archer to wire his thinking to expect to hit rather than miss.  I believe "aim small, hit small" (keep it positive),

Currently I try to end most practice sessions with 30 yards shots.  I think next year I'll start at 40 and end with 40.

[YORNOC]

Shawn, I definitely agree. I prefer close shots...but of course individual circumstances determine what happens. Each situation is different.
I'm not so worried about my bow noise as I am just normal game movement. I had a caribou bite at his butt at 30 yards and I wounded it because of this. My only wounded animal in 28 years. I still lose sleep over it to this day. I spent three days searching for it passing on many other shot opportunities along the way. It was my fault, and the animal suffered badly because of my poor judgement. I knew I should have waited till closer but I took the long shot. In the seconds of arrow flight, he spun and bit at his butt.
Never again. I'll wait till I'm close.
Everybody else can shoot at 100 yards if they want, but not me. I wont.

[YORNOC]

Originally posted by joe skipp:
I responded earlier...you became proficient at 20 yds and under through practice...alot of practice, dedication and concentration.

Put that same dedication and concentration to work on shots 25-30 yds and you'll be amazed at what your bow/arrow will do. Get rid of that mental block. Spend a day stumpshooting at longer distances and find out what your setup will do at those distances.

I found out in Wyoming years ago, a 40 yd shot at mule deer in the Prairie is a "gimme". There is nothing between you and the animal but clean air. If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

I had a customer who claimed never to shoot past 20 yds, in fact, 15 yds and under were his norm. I cringed when he told me he had a high rack 8pt 25 yds away, totally relaxed, broadside, looking the other way and he passed. If had listened to me and incorporated long distance shooting in his sessions, he might have been dragging that deer out.

We stump shoot together a few times a year and he now has no problem hitting at 30 yds....dedication and concentration. The last 2 bucks I killed were roughly 35 and 38 yds, from the ground. Never knew what hit them.....I can hear the ground shaking now above Fred, Howard, 'Ol Ben and Jack Howard.

Joe, I totally get what you are saying and have experienced such out west. But just because I choose not to take that long shot... means that buck is there for you to shoot bro! He's all yours! I am lucky enough to hunt where my encounters are closer.

This may REALLY burn some bridges....but just because Fred, Howard, Ben and Jack shot bombs doesn't mean its okay for the world to do so. A big name doesn't mean they are flawless and all knowing.
But ALL DUE RESPECT TO EVERYBODY.....You know what you can do and what feels right, be it 100 or 10. Shoot straight and go with what feels right. Lets drop some game this year!

[Cootling]

Originally posted by joe skipp:
If I waited for that 15-20 yd encounter, I would have come home empty. By "gimme" I don't mean chip shot, I mean you better take it.

Why?  What's wrong with coming home empty?

[Javi]

You know over the years anchor points have moved higher and higher, this is especially true of those shooting 3 under, a high anchor point limits the effective range and shortens the point on distance. I expect this is a contributing factor along with eastern hunting mentality to the 20 yard maximum range some would like to see as a limit along with the advent of 3-D as a practice venue instead of field archery.  If you look back at those who we consider the pioneers of modern archery they were shooting much greater distances and were anchoring on their chins or with the index finger in the corner of their mouths which greatly increased their point on aim and their effective distance.

[Ragnarok Forge]

I think trad archers as a group have evolved a close in hunting ethic that works for a lot of situations and hunters.  If you hunt Mulies in high open country, Sheep or goats in the mountains, etc...  you would most likely focus on shots out to 40 yards and become proficient at them.  If your life depended on the meat you brought home, I also believe you would develop longer range shooting skills and would use them.

Ethics are deeply personal.  The law determines what is legal and illegal, most often based on a societal ethic.  Beyond the law it is up to each person which personal version of ethics they practice.

[YORNOC]

Heh, if my life depended on it, I'd be setting snares, not shooting a bow! But yeah, very personal thing for sure.

I had a friend that insisted that no deer could be shot past 18 yards.  From his perspective he was right. He was shooting a bow that was marked 50 pounds and he had a two inch shorter release than he was willing to admit. He was shooting carbons that were excessively front loaded and way too heavy for is rig. With that slow of an arrow, I would not shoot more than 18 yards either.  Since then, he has gone back to cedars with a heavier faster bow and likes his actual shorter and more accurate shooting style. He now says no deer should ever be shot over 27 yards away.  I have years when I know I am good out past forty and will shoot a deer that is calm and in good setup out to 30 or more, then there are times when I know that I will keep it under 25 yards and still only when the situation is right.  I will not ever try to tell anyone what is right for them. On any given day or situation it may be right or wrong. Same goes for draw weights and arrow weights for deer. A perfect flying lighter weight arrow out of lighter weight bow shot from a very accurate shooter can be deadlier farther out than someone who gets sloppy arrow flight from a too stiff and heavy of an arrow and a too heavy of a draw weight. I have seen lots of shooters have a shorter draw when they shoot at game than when they shoot at targets or are testing their arrows. The result is an arrow that is way over spined when shooting at a deer, which results in a reduced  accuracy range and reduced efficiency in the killing ability of the broadhead.  Everyone needs to be honest with themselves and know what they can and cannot do with their setup on any given day and situation.  It just takes experience, shooting live targets is a different test than 3d targets and small game opportunities is the time to take those experimental shots which tests ones abilities, not deer or elk.

[Javi]

As a note: the mass weight and FOC has very little to do with the distance one shoots if they are truly shooting instinctively.. only those who gap, string walk or face walk have to worry about such things…  :D

[Jerry Jeffer]

I never measure yardage until maybe after a shot. I put up my bow pick a spot a take the shot. If I don't think I can make the shot, I won't try, or I'll try and miss. If I say 'I can make that." I shoot, I hit it. Yeah some times I miss too. I guess I'm saying it is mental. Yesterday I took a doe at 33 yards. I never thought it was that far. I put up my bow, drew, picked a spot and watched my arrow sail way out to a kill shot. I practice at all kinds of distance, but I never measure, just point and shoot. Keep your bow arm up and focus on the spot until you hit it.