"Handshock"... need some honest help

[Friend]

Much valued and informative feedback here.

I can relate to the concerns and what options seem to work best for me.

Also, great depictions and explanation Rob.

Thanks to all!

[Jeff Strubberg]

Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock.  Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.

Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots.  You'll see the difference immediately.  I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems.  I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.

[Rob DiStefano]

if a hill style bow grip is approached the way i describe above, the handshock will be there but so incredibly slight as to not even matter.

[Jeff Strubberg]

Again, you are controlling handshock.  Not the same thing as a bow not having handshock.  

I'm not knocking Hill style bows.  They are a great piece of history and lots of folks have fun shooting them.  I just get aggravated at people who claim they don't kick.  They DO kick, and you have to make changes to your shooting style to accomodate that fact.

[GingivitisKahn]

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock.  Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.

Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots.  You'll see the difference immediately.  I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems.  I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.

All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.

 

[ron w]

Not everyone what's to shoot a Hybrid.....I know I don't care for them and I have had a bunch!! That's why there are different kinds....so you can enjoy what you like!      

[LongStick64]

Man some of you guys make it like every Hill has handshock like a serious issue. My Hill may have a little thump after you shoot but it is not something that distracts any from the shot. I use a straight hand grip on a locator grip. Come on the comments being made are a bit exaggerated in my opinion. It's not like the bow is going to damage your shoulder. With the right arrow, brace height etc a Hill with provide you with a little bit of feedback, but most guys that shoot Hills regularly, you don't notice it.

[7 Lakes]

My advice as a 20 year bowyer and 2 semester physics major...

Drawing the bow stores energy. Letting go of the string releases it.  The stored energy is going somewhere it never just disapears.
- The energy should be passed on to the arrow but not all of it can.  The heavier the arrow the more energy is absorbed.
-A heavy, oversized riser will absorb some.  Just ask any shotgunner if his 14 pound semi auto kicks compared to the 6 lb pump he grew up with.
- The heavier/longer the limb the the more weight is slammed forward at release.  Hill style bows have a thicker longer limb and small lightweight riser.  They kick more.  I build them & like them but they have more excess energy than the smaller light weight riser and long/heavy limbs can overcome.  

My advice is get a shorter longbow with a heavy riser with Bamboo limbs and the heaviest arrows you can shoot well.  R/Deflex will help.

[awbowman]

High GPP arrows.  The way I understand it is that if the energy of the bow is not taken up by the arrow (read heavy enough arrow) AND the riser is not heavy enough to absorb the additional energy there is handshock.  The correct brace height should also reduce the handshock of any good longbow to negligible amount.

[CEO]

Good reply 7 Lakes.

[MikeW]

Originally posted by YORNOC:
Man, I'm struggling badly. I want to shoot longbows in the worst way but after shooting olympic style recurves for years, then breaking my hand last year.. I feel everything very hard in my hand/wrist. I'm shooting good 64" and up hunting recurves and love 'em. But really want to tame the longbow.
Here's my issue...I have seen "no hand shock" labeled on many quality longbows. I have not found this to be the case on any of them yet.

I dont know if longbow shooters just dont feel the handshock after years of shooting or if a non handshock longbow exists out there.
I have good friends SWEAR that the "!@#$" brand is free from shock, then I shoot it and after ten shots my wrist is tingling and I'm miserable.

If it is just something that needs to be accepted with longbows and I have to adapt, thats fine and I just need to know. But if there are componants/materials/design that can get rid of this problem I'd love to learn about them.

I'm not looking to get into a "favorite bowyer" arguement here, so please dont go that way. These guys are all GREAT craftsmen. In fact, bowyer responses would REALLY be helpful.
 
Without giving away trade secrets of course!
Thanks in advance for any help,

I didn't read all the replies but I know what you are talking about, I use to go to every shoot I could just to shoot all the bows I could and I shot a bunch of high end or very highly recommended bows that were supposedly "no hand shock" I almost dropped a few of them it hurt so bad. Of the ones I can remember that had no hand shock at all for me were the original O.L., Lone Tree(R.I.P) and Whippenstick. I've shot most that folks rave about and I'll tell you if I paid $800+ for a bow that hurt every time I shot it I'd be pissed off...I should mention Thunder Sticks are something to look into also.

Good luck in your quest.
   

[ironmike]

the hand placement,arrow weight,bracehight,and silencers all play a role,ive got a 71#abbott longbow,and the best way to shoot is to push the bow handle away while it rests along the lifeline of my hand,when draw i push the  bow away and when i reach anchor  release and let the bow work itself while i push away open handed,my elbow needs a bend and so does the wrist or the yew will work against you.(no pun inteded)6 3/8 brace hight for mine.

[Jeff Strubberg]

Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
 

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock.  Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.

Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots.  You'll see the difference immediately.  I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems.  I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.

All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.

  [/b]

Whether a bow kicks or not has nothing to do with how you hold it.  Again, the right grip and form MITIGATE handshock, they don't magically make a bow not kick.

Put a hybrid and a Hill bow in a shooting machine and don't secure the grip to the machine.  Shoot an arrow.  Guess what happens?  Both bows jump forward on the release and hit the floor.  Guess which one goes farther?  More energy remaining in the bow means more kick that you have to find some way to deal with.


Let me put it another way.  Hold a hybrid however the heck you want.  No kick.  Hold a Hill in any way that doesn't turn your forearm into a shock absorber and you will lose fillings.

Hill style bows kick.  I'm glad folks like 'em, and I happen to think they are one very cool piece of archery history.  That doesn't change the fact that they kick.

[Terry Riley]

Fast flight or other low or no stretch string materials along with heavier arrows in the 9-10 grains per pound will reduce handshock noticably. Some of the R/D designs seem to have less shock than the heavy stacked limb design utilized in a Hill stright limb design. Lighter limb materials employing carbon, carbon/foam and bamboo help to reduce limb shock. A wider grip surface area and a bit of riser weight and taper helps as well. I have particular problems with the thinner or almost pointed taper on the traditional Hill design. a bicycle riding glove with a gel shock pad in the palm can also be very helpful. Hope this helps.

[GingivitisKahn]

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
 

Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
 

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock.  Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.

Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots.  You'll see the difference immediately.  I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems.  I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.

All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.

    [/b]

Whether a bow kicks or not has nothing to do with how you hold it.  Again, the right grip and form MITIGATE handshock, they don't magically make a bow not kick.

Put a hybrid and a Hill bow in a shooting machine and don't secure the grip to the machine.  Shoot an arrow.  Guess what happens?  Both bows jump forward on the release and hit the floor.  Guess which one goes farther?  More energy remaining in the bow means more kick that you have to find some way to deal with.


Let me put it another way.  Hold a hybrid however the heck you want.  No kick.  Hold a Hill in any way that doesn't turn your forearm into a shock absorber and you will lose fillings.

Hill style bows kick.  I'm glad folks like 'em, and I happen to think they are one very cool piece of archery history.  That doesn't change the fact that they kick. [/b]

You are simply wrong.  When I first got my Hill, I held it like I was used to holding a recurve and it kicked.  A few moments of research (and a good bit of practice) and I corrected my grip - no handshock.

This is the same argument we have over and over.  Some people hold them wrong and experience handshock - they swear the bow is shocky and for them it is.  Others of us hold it correctly and experience no handshock - for us the bow isn't shocky.

This statement of yours:

> Hold a hybrid however the heck you want.  
> No kick.  Hold a Hill in any way that
> doesn't turn your forearm into a shock
> absorber and you will lose fillings.

... supports what we've been saying.  Hold a hill (or similar) incorrectly and it will kick you.  Hold it correctly and it won't.

[Rob DiStefano]

the classic longbow design ("hill style", elb, "indian bow", whatever), whether backset, straight or bellyset limbs, has an inherent "handshock".  it's there to some degree, mostly more than the shooter likes.  oh yes it's there.  always has, always will be - pure physics.  

it (the shock) is a by-product of design that can be *tamed* in a variety of ways, but it's still there, waiting to bite you if you don't take measures into your hand (pun somewhat intended).  redirect that misguided energy with heavier missiles and minimal hand contact, for starters.  

take that same design and begin to snake the limbs and the shock value decreases.  we all know that, nothing new.  don't see what all the fuss is about .... it is what it is and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  and maybe we shouldn't.  i wouldn't.      

[Jeff Strubberg]

They are still effective though, aren't they, Rob?


Gingivitis;

What my statement supports is that the bow has handshock and you, the archer, have to do something about it.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
They are still effective though, aren't they, Rob?...

absolutely, sir.  i'll always have a hill longbow at the ready.  

[Swamp Yankee]

That's it; I'm tired of this arguement    
Guess I'll just have to buy a Hill and find out for myself.  Someone's gotta do it.

[StickBowManMI]

Black Widow sells a roll on rubber grip that can be placed on the Bow Handle. This seems to be helpful in reducing or eliminating "hand shock."
Try it you might like it!