Trail Cameras....ethical or not?

[LoweBow]

"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."


A trail cam is not some sort of "locating" device as a radio neck collar, nor do they "attract" or "guide" the hunter.

IMO the P&Y interpretation doesn't meet the definition of a trail camera.  Not that I care about what P&Y thinks.  P&Y is a "club" to which I have chosen not to join for my own personel reasons.

I am a cam addict!  I love the things!  I run upwards of 8 a week thru the summer and during season.  Do they help persuade me as to which farm to hunt??  I'd be lying if I said they didn't.  If I have a better chance of meeting up w/ one of 6 shooter bucks on 600ac down the street....compared to 1 shooter on my home 200a.....I'm headed to the 600a farm during the rut!

I have used them during the early season to pinpoint high activity areas in bean fields and other food sources, but that is about the only time you will ever "pattern" and mature whitetail IMO.  I use the word "pattern" losely as it's never a sure thing.  Does this make them less ethical?...no.  I see them as just another tool.  No less ethical than using an atv to drag him out.

Having the ability to track a certain deer thru the years of his life is priceless to me.

[Crash]

Good point JHG.  The only problem with the linking of the two, non-hunters and ethics, is for change to occur, normally thru new laws, two things are required:  numbers (read votes) and money.  The Traditional Archery segment is probably the smallest in numbers and generates the least amount of money due to the fact we don't use a lot of accessories or gadgets if you will.

[jhg]

I don't know about more laws- my thinking has not evolved on this subject enough to have an opinion on that yet.
I am realizing that becoming more active locally in hunting groups near me, to add my voice to the larger conversation about where hunting is headed and how how our choices as individuals can best serve it, may be a good step for me.
 In the past I have always hunted but remained separate from any organizations, groups or even hunting partners.

Joshua

[Bjorn]

If you eliminate PCB's and electronic devices we are all out of business. This Board would cease, no more driving in post 1970 vehicles to go hunting, no radios, walkie talkies, cameras or alarm clocks-except the wind up kind-and no computers of any kind including cell phones.
I'll draw my own lines and won't worry about where you draw yours.

[jhg]

Originally posted by Bjorn:
...
I'll draw my own lines and won't worry about where you draw yours.

Divided we fall. I think it is our individualism that will be our undoing, at least in this regard. I can relate to being unto oneself. Been that way myself for a long time.
I've gotten a lot from this thread, but don't have a lot more to add except the days are past when we could just go into the woods and not have to think about what we do and how it is seen by others.

J-

[Mike Bolin]

A camera is a thing and has no ethics. As a hunter I have my own personal code of ethics that I follow. If I  use my longbow to take a deer before/after season or before/after legal shooting hours, I am unethical and a law breaker, but it isn't my longbows fault!    

I have two trail cameras on a 62 acre property that I am privileged to hunt and maintain. I have two food plots on that property with a camera on each one. I DO NOT hunt on either food plot nor have I ever taken a buck that I have pictures of. I may have actually seen one of the bucks once last season but I can't say that for sure.


I've only seen a coyote on two occasions, but trailcam photos this season shows me there are quite a few of them running the property. A trapline is in order for this winter.

Hunt safe, hunt hard! >>>-------->Mike

[Mike Bolin]

oops! double clutched

[Kevin Dill]

"Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters".

I absolutely agree 100% with this statement. Their standards are obviously set for their members who are willing to agree with and abide by them.

We all set our own ethical boundaries as we think are best for our lives and this sport we love so much.

[Jeff Strubberg]

Divided we fall only applies if we refuse to stand up for each other.  It has nothing to do with whether we tolerate the use of trail cameras or not.

[[email protected]]

Consider what Webster says about "locate"

: to determine or indicate the place, site, or limits of
2: to set or establish in a particular spot : station
3: to seek out and determine the location of
4: to find or fix the place of especially in a sequence.

Seems to me that a game cam does become a "locating" devise.

SO, does that "dis-qualify" the Pope & Young buck you killed???

According to the rules...

It will be very interesting to see how the Board of Directors of P & Y deals with this...

Bob

[Bill Tell]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
"Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters".

I absolutely agree 100% with this statement. Their standards are obviously set for their members who are willing to agree with and abide by them.

We all set our own ethical boundaries as we think are best for our lives and this sport we love so much.

So you do not support Fair Chase?

What about Izzak Walton?

Izzak Walton

C)   Fair Chase
1)   The League urges states to: a)   Maximize conservation opportunities, fair chase, and ethics when
creating policy on the use of electronic technology in hunting...

Again when following the rules of fair chase then by definition the use of cameras is unethical.

By definition of ethical you can not set what an ethic is by your own conclusion.  It is a social standard not an individual standard.

If you state that you are a fair chase hunter then you can not support the use of cameras during the season.  Furthermore you can not separate the value of each rule as one being more important then the other.  They are a collective agreement.  So you are not able to condemn one for hunting high fence and then not condemn the use of cameras during season.

I hunt Fair Chase.

[Shawn Leonard]

I agree the P&Y club is just that and cannot set ethical standards but to say that a trail camera is not a locating device is false. Ok it is not a radio collar but when you can check your cell phone or computer and see a buck has walked by the same tree(camera is on said tree)3 days in a row between 7am and 730am and you go sit there on the 4th. day, maybe he shows maybe he doesn't but out of say 15 cameras you have placed this one shows a buck being the most consistent and you shoot him that 4th. day, you cannot say that the pictures and the regularity that he has been coming by did not influence your decision to sit that stand. I hope I make myself clear I am not against guys using them, even if they go what I consider overboard!!! I myself and myself only feel it is cheating a bit. Yet I don't feel I am cheating treating my clothes with Ozoneor using scent killing sprays so as stated it is a personal thin and nothing else. Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

Yup Bob, technically if my bud is sitting a stand 100 yards from me and I see a P&Y buck sneaking in behind him and I text him on my cell phone and he turns around and shoots the buck the buck would not qualify according to a friend of mine who scores for P&Y. Ecsp. if my friend is talking to the measurer while the guys scores it and says, "Man I would of never seen this buck if my bud had not texted me and told me he was right behind me!"  Tough question and could be interpreted different by different P&Y folks. I by the way do not belong nor would I enter an animal unless it was a world record as I would owe it to my family to enter it due to the financial gains!(I do have a couple kids in college)  Yes I can be bought!!    Shawn

[Kevin Dill]

Bill Tell,

Of course I support fair chase. I don't jump on the P&Y or Izaak Walton bandwagons though and I decidedly DON'T allow them to decide what I consider fair chase in all regards. Their definition does not automatically become mine. In many cases my def of fair chase is more conservative and limited than is theirs.

"If you state that you are a fair chase hunter then you can not support the use of cameras during the season."

Only if you agree with the rules of fair chase as written by these organizations of men...who hold no authority to impose their moral or ethical values on you, me or anyone.

You already know that I consider the use of trail cameras to be unethical for me. My opinion and ethics were not dictated to me by P&Y or IW or TG or.....anyone. I grew my own...thank you.

[Shawn Leonard]

Kevin, well said!! I also want to comment on the way everyone is conducting themselves!! These type of threads have a way of going downhill fast and people getting a bit touchy pretty quick(Me for one!!)but this thread has been a pleasure to participate in and I want to say I respect each and everyones opinion on here whether they like it or not!!     Shawn

[Kevin Dill]

Well Shawn...this is a very good thread in my book. How many places can you go and discuss ethical issues such as these with guys from CA to MA? There is much to learn and some to share. I feel sorry for those who may feel hostile when others' ethics don't match theirs.

Great thread!

[KodiakMag]

Originally posted by Mudd:
I've never owned one but not because of any ethical issues.

If someone were to give one to me I'd put it up somewhere just for the fun of seeing what's out there when I'm not.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

The biggest advantage for me would be the boost to my motivation in getting out there and/or hanging with it just another hr or so longer with anticipation.

My 2 cents worth.

If you got'em, use'em !!!

God bless,Mudd

That is exactly why I bought mine. It is cool to see what is lurking out there. I don't get a picture of a buck and hold off on all others waiting for him. The first good buck in range is taking a dirt nap.    

[Shawn Leonard]

Kevin mine too, did ya read my whole post. Great thread and my last comment was tongue in cheek as meant by the bigsmile!! Shawn

[LeeBishop]

Originally posted by [email protected]:
Consider what Webster says about "locate"

: to determine or indicate the place, site, or limits of
2: to set or establish in a particular spot : station
3: to seek out and determine the location of
4: to find or fix the place of especially in a sequence.

Seems to me that a game cam does become a "locating" devise.

SO, does that "dis-qualify" the Pope & Young buck you killed???

According to the rules...

It will be very interesting to see how the Board of Directors of P & Y deals with this...

Bob

That may put Fred Bear's kills in jeopardy too. I saw an interview with Ted Nugent that said Fred used to throw out corn for deer and use lures for game.

Hmmmm, might not be ethical by some "experts" opinions.

[Bill Tell]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Bill Tell,
You already know that I consider the use of trail cameras to be unethical for me. My opinion and ethics were not dictated to me by P&Y or IW or TG or.....anyone. I grew my own...thank you.

The overall point that I am trying to make is that ethics can not be established by "I grew on my own"  that is not what the word encompasses.  It is a social standard and if we do not look for written definitions like P&Y and IW then it is unsubstantiated.  

What you are describing is a personal code of conduct.  A very good one I will acknowledge.  Just consider they are two separate things.  Consider this too, what would happen if you wrote down your personal code and shared it with us all?  Well then it starts to become part of the social accepted ethical standard.

I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field.  I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples.