Trail Cameras....ethical or not?

[Shawn Leonard]

Sorry, but comparing something that actually takes a picture and tells you the time a deer was there and in some cases the weather conditions to a treestand or bow or anything mentioned is like comparing apples to oranges. None of the things mentioned help me pattern an animal to the point I know when it takes a dump. Again it seems my points are being picked out and I really could care less if ya use one or a hundred, because the people who use them to actually do as I said in my statement have to be happy with themselves and no one else. I myself would not be happy with myself. I actually have a buddy who uses them as described and he does kill some nice deer every year, funny he always killed a nice buck every 4 or 5 years but now that he sets up 15 to 20 cameras on his 137 acres he magically kills one every year. I know he spends a lot less time in the woods the last 4 years as well, maybe it is a coincidence but I doubt it. I am happy for him too. I also will say they are not a guarantee you will kill more deer but they sure as hell help more than my arrows or treestand or the bow I shoot. There is no argueing some facts, you do not have to spend as much time in the woods thus reducing not only the scent you spread but the noise you make and the visual cues to deer. Go ahead and use them, I have nothing bad to say about anyone who does, just don't preach to the people who choose not too. I like John like Mid-West whitetails but they go overboard as do many others with their use of trail cameras to assist them in killing certain bucks. Face it, on properties like they have a lot of us could kill a good buck each year by just putting in our time, the old fashioned way!! Have fun and as my wife of 25 years would say "Do whatever blows your hair back!" Shawn

[horatio1226]

Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
 

quote:Originally posted by Coonbait:
WOW, the dreded question if something gives us as hunters an unfair advantage over the animals that we persue. My thought is trail cameras are only a tool. No more of an advantage than treestands, binos, scentlock type clothing,portable ground blinds, rubber boots, camo clothing, carbon or aluminium arrows, synthetic bow strings, arial photos and the list of whats an unfair advantage could go on forever. I guess we could hunt with selfbows,wooden arrows with stone points in loin clothes if we wanted to be completely fair. But someone would come along and say that the bow and arrow really puts the animal at an unfair advantage because a deer doesn't get one! It's a silly argument that really only devides us in the lifestyle we so love.
Glenn

[LeeBishop]

My two-year-old trail camera that LOVES to eat C batteries helped me find this doe that had been hit hard by the severe drought we had for months.

I had placed a salt block out in the woods but after seeing what this doe looked like, I put out a bag of corn near this camera to give her something to eat.

A lot of the plants were stunted, my planted food plots died and were overrun by other species and the creek dried up to nothing but rock.

I don't think it's unethical. It helps me know who's in the neighborhood and what condition my deer are in.

For the last two years I have collected doe photos and they have been stocky and healthy. This one kind of startled me with how thin it looked.

   

I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between photos. This is from one year ago.

 

[Ben Maher]

Each to their own .
I use my archery and bowhunting as a tool to get away from things stressful and modern . It is a freedom of mind to wander the woods in expectation and trail camera's would take that away for me .I always enjoy seeing others photo's though .

 But for others , getting their deer is probably more important than it is to me, or they may have reduced leisure time or limited access etc and a camera may help them enjoy their hunting more so I make no judgements ... just choices .

But I'm pretty sure Maurice Thompson would slap me upside the head for using one ......

[Shawn Leonard]

Ben you make a great statement "I make no judgements just choices." Well said! Shawn

[Kevin Dill]

I'll throw this up for fun and discussion...

A camera that senses movement or heat and snaps a film picture...became a digital one that logged in data related to the date and time...became one with additional capabilities to sense and record climate variables...became one that integrates and communicates with your smart(?)phone via the cellular network. How much additional capabilities are awaiting development?

Forty miles from my home there is a company that manufactures trail cam systems. These systems use multiple cameras which relay their images and data to a main "server" camera. In essence, a web-work of cameras can be established around a given property, and real-time images are transmitted from the "server" camera. These images and related data are either transmitted to your phone or computer by radio signal (to a base station receiver) or by cellular network. Is there an app for that?

The upshot is that a hunter CAN be sitting on a deer stand while watching his smart(?)phone for instant data which tells him about deer movements at a different stand...or many of them.  Do you like the idea of guys having as many wireless communication devices as they can afford out there in the woods? You may not be using them at this advanced level, but the technology is now in place and being used.

I consider all this to be more about the slippery slope. How do you argue against 2 guys using cell phones to communicate deer movements, while allowing an expensive electronic device to communicate the same (or maybe better) information to a hunter? Splitting hairs? Are you ready for solar-charged real-time video surveillance while we hunt? How much circuitry in the woods is too much? How traditional is its use?

Do you prefer the science of technology over the art of hunting?

And finally...ever think that there might come a day when you'll say, "Jeez...we should have controlled electronic technology before it became 'the new traditional'?

Fun to think about, isn't it?

[jhg]

I agree. Here is what Greg Munther had to say:

"Surveys show that most Americans support hunting for food. What turns average folks against hunting is not the antics of antis but the behavior of hunters themselves. When animals are shot only for trophies or hunted under other than fair chase conditions, when game is wounded and not recovered or otherwise suffers unnecessarily-all such events influence average citizens against hunting. We can't remain passive on such issues as ethics and hunter conduct and expect hunting to survive in America."

And:

"If the military has a piece of technology that can be adapted to make hunting easier or more successful, a major hunting catalog outlet will likely be selling some version of it within five years. Rangefinders, GPS devices, night-vision optics, and trail cameras have all ganged up to relegate woodsmanship to the back burner."


(From his interview in TRad Bowhunter mag.)
--------------------------------------------------
At some point we are going to have to choose. Don't rock the boat and let it all just take over the sport, or draw a line. Sorry, but none of us are going to get away with being polite ("live an let live") on this larger issue and save hunting. Sad, but its true.

Joshua

[LimBender]

Most people do not use cameras to "pinpoint" a buck and waltz in there and kill him.  Most of the time they are placed in high traffic, night time areas for seeing what's out there, if bucks are in "an area," finding out if you have too many hogs or coons, etc.  Also, if you are working hard to manage property - planting trees, shredding, food plots, thinning timber, passing bucks, it is a way to confirm the results of what you are doing and give you some motivation.

It can be like a side hobby and a lot of "fun" to stay up late looking at pics - beats watching a crappy hunting show on tv.

I'm also not sure that going in and trying to "pinpoint" a big buck is all that doable in a lot of circumstances.  Just about every mature buck I've seen on cam is always looking right at the cam and avoids that area until night.  Everyone knows about "educating" deer, and constantly checking cams is certainly one way to do that.

[Jeff Strubberg]

When you can shoot that buck while looking at him through said camera, then I will call cameras unethical (anyone remember something like this being offered on a Texas ranch a few years back?).

Until then, cameras are just another scouting tool.  making things harder does not necessarily make them more ethical.

[KentuckyTJ]

The thread is about is it ethical or not?  If you think it is not ethical, you are saying it is easier to kill a buck with a trail camera than without one. My point is that the ones that have said this in this thread have not actually done it so how would they know? You may have a camera but have you actually patterned a buck with it and killed him??? If you have not done that then you don't know if it is easier.

I check my cameras on average of every three days. I am walking into a mature bucks lair every three days. Sitting atop a ridge watching a field is no where near the intrusion I am making.

[jhg]

I have hunted with guys that use a GPS and I can tell you it IS easier for them to find a spot in the wilderness than I can using my compass and map. And to say using a camera is not making it easier is just not true. Knowing what the animal looks like, for example, whether a takable buck or not tells you something very important. To hunt that area or not.
C'mon. But lets get to the bottom of what we are arguing. Its to save hunting. Not whether or not you or I differ on what defines ethical. As long as the debate is limited to that circular and unending debate, the technology creep will continue unabated and eventually destroy our sport. There, I said it! That is my point of view and why I do not like these devices. They are part of a larger tehno onslaught that is degrading our sport.

J-

[Kevin Dill]

If the contention is that game cameras do not make it easier (to locate, pattern and kill) then it begs two questions for clarification:

1) Are the literally millions of these cameras in use only for the fun of recording game images, and not for aiding the hunter toward a kill?

2) Is perception reality here? If a guy thinks these electronics are a great help (buys them) does that send the message that we're okay with progressive development and implementation of game-locating technology?

The final sentence is where my ethical dilemma (and line) begins. At what point are we using electronic-tech to the point of abusing it? Think you can stop this thing when you decide it's too much?

[KentuckyTJ]

GPS has nothing to do with a trail camera you are getting off the subject discussion. Here is the thread title

Topic: Trail Cameras....ethical or not?

Also where did you get the idea this thread was about saving hunting and trail cameras or any technology was going to "End all hunting"? That statement is ludicrous and a total thread hijack. Can we stay on track here?

[Recurve50 LBS]

The choice of if it's ethical using trail cams lays inside of you. You are the one that decides if you choose to use them or not use them.

For me if I could afford them and if they could e mail the immages to my computer so I wouldn't have to go there spreading my scent around and if I had private land to place them on I would use them.

That's a lot of "if's"

[jhg]

Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
GPS has nothing to do with a trail camera you are getting off the subject discussion. Here is the thread title

Topic: Trail Cameras....ethical or not?

It was used to illustrate  a point that is very much part of the topic. Are trail cam ethical. Read my post. A discussion about ethics IS about our sport and its health.

[KentuckyTJ]

Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.

[jhg]

Point taken. I thinks its a thinly supported one,;0) but I will accept it for face value.

 We all feel pretty strongly about this subject. Are such cameras ethical? I think its because it gets at a fundamental issue behind it. But perhaps we are not ready to have that conversation yet, but I believe its one we will have to engage in soon.


J-

[Jeff Strubberg]

I think there's a fundamental problem here.  Making something harder does not make it more ethical. Likewise making something easier does not make it less ethical.  The two have nothing to do with one another.

Pushing a spear through a human being is a lot more difficult than shooting someone with a rifle.  That doesn't mean that killing someone with a spear is ethical.

[Biggie Hoffman]

Do you know what a boost it gives you to capture a nice buck when you didn't know he existed? It sure helps me sit a little longer!

If you use them instead of scouting, you may have a problem with them but using them in addition to the hours and hours you spend in the woods, I don't see how anyone could consider it cheating. You still have to hunt the wind and make the shot.

[mrjsl]

People where I live use a camera called a plotwatcher that takes still photos on a timer all day every day and condenses that into a short video when you download it. Kind of like a surveillance camera. This camera will watch a wide area too. It doesn't depend on the deer coming close and triggering it. It just constantly records everything that happens in a parking lot size area as long as it's there.

Now a fellow hunting on 600 acres with 4 or 5 of these cameras can absolutely have the place figured out in no time. People love it here for the same reason they love bait - it makes it easier to kill more deer with less effort. The promise of more deer kills with less effort sells like hotcakes here.

Such a device used in such a way is a major shortcut compared to not using cameras at all. Just because I use a glass bow instead of a wood one I carved out myself or steel broadheads instead of stone points absolutely does not disqualify me from saying what is obviously the plain truth. Yes, using a fast flight string could also be considered a shortcut, but those sorts of comparisons are hogwash. It's not even close to as big a shortcut.

All types of trail cams are illegal on some federal lands here already.