Trail Cameras....ethical or not?

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.

You are 100% missing the point. Ethics do not need to be "done" or "proved" in order to be valid. They are a value...a belief...and they lead you down the path you choose. Your argument would invalidate anyone's opinion that something is ethically wrong for them, simply because they have never done it. I've not done a lot of things in life that I believe are ethically wrong for me.

The thread title does not use the word "easier".

[Jedimaster]

I don't worry too much about other folks ethics.  It falls into the same category as the weather, I don't control it and I can't do a thing about it.  It just makes me angry, without any benefit, for my personal feelings to get played into such a broad spectrum of ideas.  

However, I will say this:  90% of the time, I deplore seeing trail cameras in the woods.  It agravates me to no end that I can be miles from any human being and have to check every tree and bush before I relieve myself.  It is intrusive! Just to know that my picture will wind up on some yahoo's cell-phone makes me want to scream.  For that alone I wish they were never invented.

Had a "friend" last year that set out a camera and then got mad when he caught me hunting "his" buck. What?!? I was hunting deer, had no idea what the buck looked like or that he belonged to another person!  Well, I just don't need that kind of issue going on in my favorite past-time, regardless if that guy was a true friend or not.

For what it's worth, around my parts, the camera is more likely to be taken than a deer.  Private property or public, they seem to be on everyones list of favorite things to steal.  Actually, I have a buddy that uses them only to see who's trespassing or otherwise misusing his property.

I've had a couple of situations where I would have liked to have one, but I can't afford to buy something just to have it stolen or destroyed ... so I guess it's a non-issue for me. Good discussion here though.

[Kevin Dill]

And yes...for the record:

I do believe game cameras are unethical for me to use. That's because I'm supporting a segment of the sport which will continue to propogate electronic technology into the field, and give us as much advantage over our quarry as dollars can buy. I see a problem down the road, but it's not a road I'm going to help build.

[Bill Tell]

unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior

Pope and Young

 “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."

By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!

[Rick Perry]

for everyone that claims electronic spying does not "help" the mighty hunter to kill a c ertain deer ,here is how it unfolds  


 Mr BBH (big buk hunter 8^) ..... has permission to hunt 3 farms, season has been open a few weeks and mr. BBH hasnt seen a buk he is interested in tagging for his trophy collection . He is hunting farm "A" 60% of the time because last july he saw a couple of shooters in the bean  field on that property .

 Today mr BBH checks his electronic spy cameras on all three farms and  "oh yay" there are 49 pics of a whopper using his food plot on farm "C". Our hero immediatley begins hunting farm C and 3 days later he slays "the wide dark horned 10" ... LOL .

 Now heres the rub .......... without his electronic spy he would not even know this deer existed ,he would still be hunting farm A , woodsmanship ,deer savvy , and scouting ( reading sign etc) had zero contribution to our heros success story . Without the electronics this "wide dark horned 10" lives a couple more seasons and dies of natural causes carrying a world record class set of antlers .


  Like I said in an earlier post , they are fun during the off season but they should be required to be removed from the field before hunting seasons open .


 Just my honest opinion  .......    


 At least we all have to admit one thing  ............... scouting cameras are not being used to kill does or yearling buks .......... it is all about big antlers .

[Shawn Leonard]

TJKentucky, that is my point, I do not want to find out!! I see guys doing it and killing deer by using them. As said above the technology will just become more advanced. The question cannot be answered as ethics are too broad, what one person feels is ethical another may not. Ethics no one can judge what is or is not, only the lord if you believe in him. It is just ones opinion, I would not answer the qusetion as it may make me a hypocrite, as I have a camera on a trail right now and have seen 6 bucks using this run, I am pulling the camera today but I will hunt that run at some point this year. My point is I am not setting up more cameras closer to the bedding area and the food source and eventually patterning these deer to a tee like some folks are doing. I love the pics. of big bucks and the turkeys actually pecking at my camera, I just think at some point the line is crossed. Do an on-line search and you will see as mentioned above the technology exists that allows some(not many due to the cost) but some, to actually use these cameras set in a certain way to no doubt pattern deer and kill them. Ethical I cannot decide that, it is just not what I think hunting should be about. TJ the way you are using your cameras to me is not an issue, it is the folks who are going over the top with their use. Some folks say baiting is unethical well if it is legal does that make it ethical? Lots of stuff out there that is considered legal but ethical, come on. Trail Cameras when used a certain way may not be fair to the animals we hunt or maybe they are, see my point? Shawn

[KentuckyTJ]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
 

Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.

You are 100% missing the point. Ethics do not need to be "done" or "proved" in order to be valid. They are a value...a belief...and they lead you down the path you choose. Your argument would invalidate anyone's opinion that something is ethically wrong for them, simply because they have never done it. I've not done a lot of things in life that I believe are ethically wrong for me.

The thread title does not use the word "easier". [/b]

Agreed Kevin. I am debating the statements in this thread that are alluding to making it easier and whether or not that is Ethical.

[Kevin Dill]

...and for the record T.J....I do always respect your thoughts here. I think of you as an ethical man. Appreciate this discussion.

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by Bill Tell:
unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior

Pope and Young

 “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."

By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!

Great illustrative post. A very recognized and prominent organization believes as stated.

The rub is simply the numbers of people (not TG-rs) who couldn't care less about ethics or having any limits based on them. The new ethic seems to often relate to "can I do this legally", instead of "should I support this behavior"?

[Shawn Leonard]

I missed the post on the P&Y rules, which I knew what they were. The trail camera thing has its merits, so if you post on a public forum ,pics. of a giant buck you have been hunting and write"I knew he was hitting this food plot at 530 every evening" than kill this buck on that food plot and post"without my trailcam I would of not ever found this buck" the buck does not qualify for P&Y?????  It is not an issue for me as I would not enter an animal in the books, as I hunt for me and only me but it is an issue!! I too support TJ and always respect his views on a variety of subjects, as I am sure he does the same towards me.  Shawn

[KentuckyTJ]

Thank you Kevin and Shawn. I to appreciate a good discussion. Hopefully we can revisit it more in depth over a campfire some day.

[Crash]

I agree with you Kevin that some people only look at activities based on the law but I'm not sure that I want legislators getting involved either.  Who would decide if something needed to be outlawed?    

I can see there is a slippery slope here and once something gets traction, it's harder to stop, especially if there is money involved.  

At present, it is legal in most areas and each hunter will have to decide whether or not it meets their own ethical standard.

[Ray Lyon]

I don't know if it was mentioned in an earlier post yet or not, but Fred Asbell had a very good article on this not too long ago in TBM. In my opinion, his very valid point was (paraphrased) one thing may not seem "unethical" by itself, but if you start lumping things together (trail camera's, baiting, ect), you've now collectively moved the bar a lot compared to a self bow and flint arrow point tipped cane arrow while stalking on the ground in buckskins.  

I've known Roger for some time now and I was in camp with him for the first time when he came back and told the story of passing up a dandy buck from the ground (mere yards away)because of a poor shot angle. Roger has time and again displayed ethics and character in hunting camp.  

His question is very valid and I think it really goes back to what G. Fred has already written about...at what point collectively is it going too far???  

I'm personnally taking a slight step back this year. For many years now I've been using carbon arrows. This year I'm back to hunting from the ground occassionally and also using wood arrows.  It's not that I was killing monster bucks or anything like that, but it's a personal challenge.  I think that's part of what make up our ethics.  You could have the latest and greatest cell phone monitored trail camera that would tell you whats going on in your woods, but if you were shooting a bow with an effective range of 5 yards and wearing a blinking neon suit  from a stool in the open, you're probably not going to be successful.  

It's a great question, and the responses provide food for thought, but ultimately-because it's ethics, it's going to come down to what's in your heart.

[2020]

ethical is a word that people will always debate do to the difference in hunting and life styles,If I can go to sleep at night without questioning my actions during the day then it is "ethical" to me,and thats all that matters!I hunt for me,I decide if the arrow leaves the string!Do cameras make it easier,I have used them on and off for years and I would say,in my case no,you still sit you still have to pull off the shot you still have to blood trail you still have to drag the animal,woodsmanship should not be in question you have to figure out where to place the camera,if you think you just put them in the woods and deer just start showing up your wrong.Benefits of the camera over the years is I have caught 2 trespessers on my lands and have been able to show them and now the stay off with involving the police,upstate NY had close to 25" of rain and very high winds,I hunt a oak ridge and knew the acorns could be gone off the trees and in fact some of the trees are gone,so I sat my stand one night with my son and saw 1 doe after 3 hours,then after 6 hours of scouting moved some old stands 7 to be exact,in 6 hours I heard 3 acorns fall from the trees on the ridge,not a good sign,past years your would need a hard hat in there.So I put a camera in for a week and saw plenty of deer still there and turkey,and ticks!!So I pulled the camera because of theft issues in the past,and I also dont like going in to check pics every few days do to jumping deer and leaving scent,so now I know the deer are there and I can use my limited time to hunt hopfully a productive area.Using the cameras is also fun because you can share pics with your family and friends so they can see whats in the woods and could maybe spur a new hunter?Ethical is a word that will always bring in emotion,I will always make it up to me,I have to live with my action not you and like wise,so I wish everyone good luck with or without cameras,carbon,allumium,wood arrows,what ever broadhead,scent killer spray or machines or nothing,factory bows,custom bows,ground hunters or treestand hunters,etc,etc,etc,just remember we are all on the same team to keep the outdoor lifestyle alive and well,so last but most important before any of your equipment goes in the woods be sure your kids are with you first so they can carry the lifestyle on,they way they choose to!Good luck shoot straight!

[2020]

sorry for the few typing mistakes,most you can figure out but the one I wanted to make a point on is with the camera I was able to confront the trespessers with the picture and not involve the police,and have built a outdoor relationship with both of them.Boundries have been set and we will help each other blood trail and drag etc.

[mrjsl]

Originally posted by 2020:
ethical is a word that people will always debate do to the difference in hunting and life styles,If I can go to sleep at night without questioning my actions during the day then it is "ethical" to me,and thats all that matters!

Here's another stance that always comes up in debates about hunting... moral or ethical relativism

Whether or not you can sleep at night is absolutely NOT all that matters. There are people who can sleep at night after murdering, raping and stealing for fun or profit, but the fact that they are personally OK with themselves after such acts doesn't make those acts ethical.

[TRAD101]

they are more fun than anything to me, I have yet to find a deer that stops by on a regular schedule.

[Biggie Hoffman]

Originally posted by Bill Tell:
unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior

Pope and Young

 “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."

By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!

Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters

[KentuckyTJ]

My thoughts exactly Wayne.

[jhg]

Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
...Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters

Interesting. I never even considered that. So who does, besides ourselves? What I am grappling with, is how do you stand up for and protect something that you believe in (our right to hunt) without taking that stand when something is going on you feel will slowly degrade that right? It is the few who will use cameras in a way that reflects poorly on us all. The implications are huge for the sport. The two issues, ethics and perception by non-hunters, are linked. You cannot discuss one without the other.
I don't have an issue with a lot of what has been said in defense of cameras.
 I have an issue with how little connection we make to how using them is perceived outside our little group.

J-