Self Bow and EFOC...

[Billy]

OK, I would like to hear your thoughts for or against...Not your argument against the other guy's point but, your thoughts.

I shot one EFOC, carbon arrow (repeatedly) from a..
-sinew backed Osage
-Osage R/D self bow, and a
-glass backed recurve.

I saw penetration differences in all three VS the normal arrow with each bow.
I think I saw slower flight from the two Osage and faster from the recurve...All were 50# more or less.

Since I generally shoot the sinew backed or self bows......
Does it matter wood or carbon? Does a longer draw help? Open to your thoughts and ideas...

[awbowman]

1)  I like heavy arrows if I will be within 20 yards of the animal.  If my shots could be over that I tend to try and stay at about 10 grains per pound of draw.  Helps with the trajectory.  No doubt the heavier the better penetration AND quieter.

2)  I like carbon because I tend to get a more consistent flight from arrow to arrow.  I think it's a "tool" I need. lol   But if I took the time to do a selfbow or sinew backed bow, I'd have wood arrows for the nostalgia

3)  I suffer from a 26” draw length.  I have been told that on average you can gain as much as 10 fps per inch of draw.

[Molson]

There's just something wrong with shooting anything but natural shafts from a selfbow.  It really is like putting aluminum or vinyl siding on a log cabin...      

[Friend]

What matters 1st in order to address your questions is to know your specific objectives.

[Lost Arra]

>>There's just something really wrong with shooting anything but natural shafts from a selfbow<<

+1

[Troy Breeding]

Alot of people say it's just plain wrong to shoot anything but wood out of a selfbow. To me, I feel that if it improves your ability then use it. The amount of FOC one can achieve is limited with anything other than carbon. If higher FOC improves your penetration then why not use the shaft material that can produce the best FOC?

As you well know I shoot Ultra Extereme FOC arrows and will never go back.

Troy

[nlester]

I shoot carbons out of a selfbow and a longbow, because they're cheaper.  I most definitely like woodies, but wood shaft prices are outrageous in my opinion.  If the price were equal, I'd shoot woods....however, they're not.

[John Scifres]

Woodies for me.  I taper mine and use 190 grain heads to get around 15% FOC.  

Inside of 20 on deer and I doubt it matters much.  I have shot through both hindquarters on a deer with a selfbow and <10 gpp, slight FOC arrows.

[getstonedprimitivebowhunt]

Why use anything but wood shafts with selfbow..I don't understand it any other way.. But to each his ..."OWN" !

[Jack Skinner]

Wood for me. Footed shafts with heavey heads will give you FOC. EFOC is difficult to acheive. I have had great results in both flight and penetration with just FOC in the 15-20% range.

[Lost Arra]

Esthetics and tradition aside, carbon arrows are always too stiff for my selfbows. Tuning for good arrow flight from selfbows takes a little voodoo anyway. I just aim for good flight and 10gr per lb draw weight and call it good.  Wood arrows seem to just tune better for me and like John said, they still go thru deer.

[Mark Baker]

I won't shoot/hunt with anything but wood out of my selfbows....if I go to the trouble to build a primitive bow it just seems "defeatist" - is that a word?!- to use a high tech material shaft.   Having said that, those carbons will shoot great from a selfbow.  Being smaller diameter, they will lie closer to center on the bow, and should be quite easy to tune.   They also, for the same smaller diameter reasons, and everything else being equal, should penetrate better.  

If one is just starting out building selfbows, and is struggling with arrow flight - it happpens- and he/she finds that they can get good flight from a carbon, then I say "go for it".   Hunting with primitive gear is a state of mind, and re-inforcing that ability, even in small steps, (using the bow, not yet the arrows) helps to develop that mindset.  It doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal....ease into it, and keep your challenges fresh.

There are good ways to get more FOC in wood arrows, as well, so carbon is not the only shaft that is suitable for that.   Woody weights are a great tool for getting weight up front....also internal footings are good.  

If one uses the smaller diameter wood shafts (you should be able to find 5/16 shafts to fly from a 50lb bow) and weights the front and uses enough fletching to "correct" and steer, you should be able to get as good performance from your wood as you can from carbon.

[Billy]

Thanks to All!!

I likely will stay with the woodies I shoot. Though adding some weight to the front seems reasonable and doable.

At my 26" draw, I get rght around 575 with POC.
Put on an Ace 200 grn head and it drags a bunch up front.

I shot that carbon EFOC and saw a jig for drilling woodies this past weekend. Wanted to hear(read) what others thoughts were on FOC/EFOC and self/sinewed bows.

Like I heard said, 'the high FOC is for the not-so-perfect shot'...

OH that ALL my shots went right where they should!!

Thanks Again. Any other thoughts Welcome.

[Bjorn]

I shoot wood out of all my bows, recurves, R/D longbows, and selfbows-it is just a preference thing. I think high FOC is a good thing; but good tuning trumps everything else about arrows.
In order to get high FOC it helps to have a stiff light shaft and put something heavy up front so wood is not the ideal starting point.
If you shoot wood check out Surewood shafts they as good as it gets.

[Ragnarok Forge]

There is something wrong with carbons on a self bow.  Not sure what, but it just seems wrong.  I shoot carbons on all my modern R/D lonbows and prefer them for a variety of reasons.

[Terry Green]

Adding a 100 grains to an arrow makes it penetrate more due to momentum....at a rate MUCH MORE HIGHER than WHERE the weight is placed on the arrow.

With the FOC 'rage n craze' and all the 'acronyms of the week'....folks have forgotten that the real PENETRATING ADVANTAGE is the weight added, NOT the displacement of.

[Troy Breeding]

Terry,

On that point I have to disagree. If you check Dr. Ashby's study you will see that two arrows of equal weight, one having average to above average FOC and one with EFOC or better UEFOC will have different penetration. The arrow with EFOC and UEFOC will out penetrate the arrow of the same weight with normal to high FOC.

Troy

[wollelybugger]

I like wood out of my self bows, just seems they go together like peanut butter and jelly. I recently got some bamboo arrows and they shoot really well out of my self bow. They look nice and really penetrate.

[Javi]

Terry, here is the analogy I use to explain the benefit of FOC...

Take two hammers both weighing 4 pounds, the first has a 3 pound handle and a 1 pound head... the second a 3 pound head and a one pound handle.... which drives a nail better?

I'm not sure that I will ever hunt anything that requires an FOC above 16% but I can readily see the difference if flight characteristics between an arrow with 8% - 10% and one with 15% - 20%  especially on a windy day...

[Troy Breeding]

Javi,

Very well stated.....

I understand the thoughts about using anything other than natural shaft materials in an all wood bow. I used to shoot them. In the past I really liked my cane shafts. The biggest problem I had was with the spine. It seemed I never could find the ones that weren't stiff and a powerpole. To solve this I would cut the shaft so that the point end was about 4"-5" in front of a node. In the hollow I would epoxy in #4 copper ground cable from node to end of shaft. I'd then taper the end and see how it shot.

Unknowing to me at the time I was making a super high FOC shaft that would penetrate better than anything I had ever shot.

When I started making hickory shafts I found that shafts of equal weight never had the penetration or flat trajectory of the cane shaft. Now that I understand everything, I laugh to myself about it.

Troy