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Author Topic: Is 7.6 gpp too light?  (Read 590 times)

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 02:50:00 PM »
Javi...Not sure I understand what you mean by data points, however changes based on a few data points is a plan for disaster in the statistical world.

Ten - twelve: gpp may translate to less vibration, less noise and more moment - typically should be a given.

I seem to be continuously experimenting both on targets and critters, however never exploited the lower end.

A previous set-up:
51@ 28 350 shaft(6.7 gpi)...100 gn insert...300 grain head 3Bl BH ...611 tot...12 gpp...~32% Ultra-EFOC

1. Completely destroyed two targets($90/ea) in six weeks. The 18 in 1 Rhinehart was warrantied for a year. Note: My previous 18 in 1 lasted ~1 1/2 years with a much less efficient arrow. The other target was a foam layered field point target.

2. Often times required and arrow puller at 3D's.

3. Often times knocked over 3D targets.

4. Have often used 2 fingers to remove 8 gpp arrows, shot from 40 pound bows, from 3D targets. Yes, I realize penetration in soft tissue and targets are quite different, yet I still can't ignore the penetration delta.

5. Backing off 50 grains, thus reducing the FOC has permitted me to continually pound my worn Morrel Outdoor Range for several thousand more rounds. I am still shooting it daily. The worn Outdoor Range target stopped handling the previous arrow set-up in July.


6. Made a frontal shot on a doe and the 1 1/2" BL head exited the inside of the back leg by approx 4 inches. She laid down on the spot.

No longer shoot this set-up:
1. Can't afford the targets
2. Turkey's are my main quarry
3. Believe this set-up would easily qualify for larger game.

The great news is that people still maintain the right to choose their set-up. My concern is that I always hope that it is based on an informed decision and not one data point.
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Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2011, 03:03:00 PM »
Wasn't me asking for data points,   :goldtooth:    I proved to myself the benefit of increased FOC and mass weight in arrows many years ago..

BTW I hate statistical analysis  :D
Mike "Javi" Cooper
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Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2011, 03:44:00 PM »
Bobaru, look up the Asby testing.  It's available here on Tradgang.  If you haven't seen a correlation between weight and penetration, then you haven't looked AT ALL.  


Take ANY bow, compound, recurve or longbow and start adding weight to the arrow.  As long as you keep the arrow tuned properly, speed will drop and penetration will go up every time.  You can test this yourself if you don't want to accept Dr. Ashby's conclusions.

With enough KE, you can get away with losing some penetration.  When your KE is low to start with, you'd better pay attention to keeping every scrap of it to get through that game animal when things don't go quite right.
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Offline Bobaru

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2011, 09:38:00 PM »
Jeff:

Yes.  I have tested.  I've shot several arrows that were tuned to my bow which had different weight.  I ran statistical tests on the results.  I could find no correlation.  Now, that's with arrows that I would consider hunting with and I did the tests for my own use.  

I've read most of Ashby.  He doesn't do statistical tests of significance.  And, he doesn't provide his reader with the data so they may do that.  Therefore, while his work was of interest to me, it was only a starting point.  And, I was not able to reproduce his work.  

When you say "With enough KE, you can get away with losing some penetration."  I would say that, unfortunatly, I have read posts where people have intentionally decreased KE, thanking Ashby, because they believed that they could make up for the loss of energy by increased mass.  

I would say, when all else fails, more KE would be a good thing.  Especially if you're hunting heavy skinned game, or dangerous game.
Bob


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Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2011, 09:22:00 AM »
KE is a crap indicator of penetration.  You really haven't read much on this.  

Take any bow.  I mean ANY bow.  Raise arrow weight.  Shoot it into the same medium as before and you will get more penetration, even though you have lost projectile speed in the process.

KE relies too much on speed and fails to follow increases and decreases in penetration in a linear fashion.

If you can't reproduce Ashby's work, you need to ask why so many other people can reproduce it.  You are doing something wrong.
"Teach him horsemanship and archery, and teach him to despise all lies"          -Herodotus

Offline Bobaru

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2011, 10:20:00 AM »
Jeff:

Perhaps I did test improperly.  That's certainly possible.  But, I thought I did my tests okay.

How did you conduct your tests and what kind of results did you get?
Bob


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Offline Bladepeek

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2011, 11:15:00 AM »
I get the feeling this very closely resembles the Elmer Kieth heavy bullet vs the high velocity explosive expansion arguments. Don't think they will ever agree on that either. My personal feelings are "give me a heavy bullet (arrow) that I can shoot through anything and I'm a happy camper. And no, I can't back up my feelings with fact.
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Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2011, 11:35:00 AM »
ke aside, imo, the common denominator always has and will be holding weight.  yes, bow efficiency/speed, too.  but mostly holding weight.  there is a big difference 'tween holding 45# and 55#.  

if one ascribed to the 10gpp rule-of-thumb-mantra, that's 450gr versus 550gr.  even if both bows spit out their respective arrow weight, and given the same arrow build save for total mass weight, which would have the edge on penetration?    

take the above scenario to the next level - a 45# reasonably efficient stick bow with a 550gr 12.2gpp arrow.  two issues to contend with - lowered arrow speed and therefore reduced effect killing range (distance).  

then there's arrow design, string design and of course the archer's consistent shooting abilities.

if the 45# bow was of greater than "normal" design/efficiency and capable of a greater than normal arrow speed, well that's a diff'rent story.
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2011, 12:14:00 PM »
Rob, that would be an interesting experiment, since the heavier arrow would maintain its energy longer all other things being equal.. It would also be interesting to see real data on the difference in flat line cast for both weight arrows from the same bow..
Mike "Javi" Cooper
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Offline JimB

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2011, 12:14:00 PM »
"I have read posts where people have intentionally decreased KE, thanking Ashby, because they believed that they could make up for the loss of energy by increased mass."

I have to agree with Jeff.KE isn't the best indicator,I prefer momentum.That's neither here nor there because increasing the arrow's weight,increases both KE and momentum.KE does not go down by adding weight to the arrow.It increases.

Here are some actual figures from one of my bows,51# at 28".I draw about 29":

Arrow weight  Speed      KE     Momentum    

714 grs       155 fps   38.08   .4914

619 grs       165 fps   37.41   .4535

530 grs       155 fps   36.03   .4118

At the time,I was playing around to see how much weight change it took to lose or gain 10 fps.The speed fluctuated a few feet per second so I rounded off those speed figures but they are very close.

I have tested other setups and got the same findings but have never gone above 14GPP.Some say there will be a law of diminishing returns with this,I'm not sure about that except in regards to acceptable trajectory but I plan to find out.

Fred Bear wrote up his impact test results in "Ye Sylvan Archer",in 1943.It's an interesting read.He shot 8 different self bows,45#-68#'s and arrows 300 to 800 grs,in 100 gr increments,so 6 different weight arrows.

In every case,with every bow,impact increased as a heavier arrow was shot.The 45# bow with 800 gr arrow would be at 17.7 GPP.He found that the striking force of a 500 gr arrow from the 61# bow was only 1% more than that of the 45# bow shooting a 600 gr arrow.

Even though his tests told him increasing the arrow weight increased striking force,he chose 10GPP as a happy medium between trajectory and hitting power.And keep in mind,in those days people took longer shots at game than most of us would today.

I've seen basically the same as Jeff and Friend,on the targets and in game.My bag target is highly compacted right now and you can literally hear the difference when the target is hit.

When I test for penetration I use a new,4" thick slab of minicell foam.Regarding the arrow figures for my bow,I also found that when my arrow speed dropped 6% due to added arrow weight,the penetration gain increased 12%.Someone explained to me the physics of that but it's lost from my memory bank.

Anyway,KE actually increases with added arrow weight.If you have access to a chronograph,you can figure that out in minutes.tuffhead.com has a neat little calculator for KE and momentum as well as links to some good articles if you like to read this kind of stuff.

Offline amicus

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2011, 12:23:00 PM »
The most important thing is your accuracy. But there is no reason why you can't have accuracy with a heavy arrow.

Accuracy with a light arrow is good
Accuracy with a heavy arrow is better.

Gilbert
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Offline LBJOE

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2011, 03:39:00 PM »
I did the math on my arrows after reading the post and came up with an arrow mass that is very light as well 412 grain arrow at 60 lb Montana. It seems to shoot great and is quiet with very little shock.  Is ibo 5 grains for compounds different than traditional equipment?  Sorry for the ignorance but kind of new to the traditional choice.I didn't do this for speed but rather by looking at the manufactures arrow charts. I was between the 5575s and the 7595s.  Looks like I chose the wrong ones.  I do know some science though. Ke =1/2 mv2.  So increases in velocity are squared. Momentum on the r other hand is P=mv.  The argument then becomes which is better ke or momentum.  I can understand both arguments.  We as traditional shooters don't take long shots and therefore momentum wouldn't decrease as much as the arrow won't lose as much velocity down range.  What I do know is that I have read arguments for this on a physics forum and even they can't agree, so fat chance of it being solved here.

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2011, 03:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LBJOE:
...Is ibo 5 grains for compounds different than traditional equipment?  ...
when i checked the ifaa and ibo rules last year there was no mention of arrow mass weight for trad bows.  i doubt there is that today.  i'd love to see how long a typical trad stick bow would last with 5gpp arrows.   :D
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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2011, 04:46:00 PM »
Rob - I am not volunteering any of my bows.
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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »
I see Fred Bear's name referenced often to the origination of the 10 gpp guideline. I have also vividly recalling the same 1943 artilce in years past. Mr. Bear in fact may be the originator, yet I have never been absolutely convinced.

It was also written that Mr. Bear settled on 10 gpp. Even if he did, what was the specific draw wt's he was using? Possibly, incorrect here, but my recollection was that he was still using heavy draw wts per today's standards even as he got up in age.

My adament opinion remains firmly grounded that by applying a 10 gpp guide line in general remains a suggestive fallacy.
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Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2011, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LBJOE:
I did the math on my arrows after reading the post and came up with an arrow mass that is very light as well 412 grain arrow at 60 lb Montana. It seems to shoot great and is quiet with very little shock.  Is ibo 5 grains for compounds different than traditional equipment?  Sorry for the ignorance but kind of new to the traditional choice.I didn't do this for speed but rather by looking at the manufactures arrow charts. I was between the 5575s and the 7595s.  Looks like I chose the wrong ones.  I do know some science though. Ke =1/2 mv2.  So increases in velocity are squared. Momentum on the r other hand is P=mv.  The argument then becomes which is better ke or momentum.  I can understand both arguments.  We as traditional shooters don't take long shots and therefore momentum wouldn't decrease as much as the arrow won't lose as much velocity down range.  What I do know is that I have read arguments for this on a physics forum and even they can't agree, so fat chance of it being solved here.
It's not really which is better.  KE is a great measure to compare the efficiency of two bows.  Momentum is a much better predictor of penetration.
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Offline sticbow

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
PEOPLE!!! if there was 10 block walls 5 feet apart an you had to get thru them..would you use a Volkswagon to go thru or a semi truck????? i want to go all the way out the other side...

Offline JimB

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2011, 05:54:00 PM »
I don't know if Fred was the first to embrace 10GPP.He almost always shot 65 lbs.I believe when he hunted the big stuff in Africa,he went up to 75 lbs.

Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2011, 05:58:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sticbow:
PEOPLE!!! if there was 10 block wall 5 feet apart an you had to get thru them..would you use a Volkswagon to go thru or a semi truck????? i want to go all the way out the other side...
Don't throw logic into this discussion.. everyone knows the laws of physics do not apply to archery..   :biglaugh:
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Offline Javi

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Re: Is 7.6 gpp too light?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2011, 06:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JimB:
I don't know if Fred was the first to embrace 10GPP.He almost always shot 65 lbs.I believe when he hunted the big stuff in Africa,he went up to 75 lbs.
Here is an excerpt from an article about this very thing… the source is  http://www.bowyersedge.com/arrows.html

Fred, and Howard, Too
In 1943, in an article entitled "Hunting Arrows" published in Ye Sylvan Archer, Fred Bear noted that "the growing popularity of field archery" has "created a demand for light weight, fast arrows." He warned against assuming "that the same qualifications are proper for hunting."
Mr. Bear conducted experiments through a shooting machine with six variously weighted arrows (300-800 grains), each in turn shot through six variously weighted bows (45-68 lbs) to prove his thesis that we should shoot heavy arrows (approximately 10 grains per pound of bow weight) through heavy bows (no less than 60 pounds at full draw for an animal the size of deer). The bows ran a sampling of limb design and materials, some backed, some not, some recurved, some straight, of hickory, yew and osage in various combinations and lengths.
The importance of arrow weight and its impact upon penetration stemmed from his observation that complete pass-through penetration of mortal arrows usually killed humanely and quickly, often near the archer, whereas mortal arrows that stayed within game often caused frightened flight, poor blood trails and, occasionally, even lost game, even when the broadhead exited the opposite side.
Using both a shooting machine and an impact measuring device (a bob, suspended pendulum fashion, that recorded the impact of each arrow with a stylus), Mr. Bear found that on the average "the 400 grain arrow struck 20 per cent harder than the 300 grain, the 500 45 percent, the 600 66 per cent, the 700 82 percent, the 800 100 percent."
He noted also that a 500 grain arrow shot from a 61 pound bow struck with a force within 1 per cent of a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow. From the other direction, a 68 pound bow with a 500 grain arrow struck less than 3 percent harder than a 52 pound bow with a 600 grain arrow.
Just as some bows are more stable and forgiving than others, and therefore preferable as hunting weapons, Mr. Bear observed that heavy arrows provide the hunter a margin for error by minimizing mistakes of form likely experienced in less than ideal hunting situations. He observed that heavy arrows, averaging ten grains per pound of draw weight, were "less sensitive to correct loose and form" than lighter arrows, which he labeled comparatively "inaccurate" and "unstable" under hunting conditions.
The implications of all this to the hunting archer? In Hunting the Hard Way, Howard Hill maintained that “all else being equal, penetration is the name of the game.” To my mind and preference, this translates to sturdy two blade broadheads at the end of heavy arrows that don't deflect easily from course, shot from quiet, sympathetic bows with the objective being complete pass-through penetration of vital areas on big game animals. If we don’t always achieve this objective, it should still shape our equipment choices, as well as determine our shot selection, because our quarry’s death is not our only goal.
Mike "Javi" Cooper
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