Carbon in bow limbs worth it?

[John Havard]

Carbon is not simply carbon.  As others have said there are many types of carbon that vary.  Carbon is a very different animal than fiberglass and requires that a bowyer start with a clean slate when designing a bow that makes use of carbon.  

I've had so many different types of carbon laid up for me over the past decade by a variety of companies that one carbon company even calls my favorite "crazy John's carbon".

From a bowyer's perspective carbon absolutely positively makes a bow perform better IF it is used properly.  

I haven't read Harrison's book but one thing attributed to him earlier is spot on - putting carbon in the middle of a limb (or even under a veneer) is a waste.  It does nothing from a quantitative standpoint to improve performance.  It simply becomes a heavy lam in the middle of the bow.

I'm a total nerd about testing each and every bow design to the 'nth" degree and have been playing with carbon now for 10 years.  I feel comfortable about my conclusions because they're based on quantitative testing where only one thing is changed at a time in the development of a new bow design.  That's the only way to know for sure what the effect of that one change is.  

Trying to use carbon in a design developed originally for glass is not going to yield good results.  And it's quite possible that some folks have simply added carbon to an existing design in order to use the word "carbon" as a marketing tool.  In such a case I would not be surprised at all if the misuse of carbon in that type of bow would lead people who buy it to conclude that carbon adds little if anything to a bow's performance.

Anyway, there is zero question about whether or not carbon improves the performance of a bow.  If used properly in a bow designed to be made with carbon it absolutely positively improves performance.

[Bob Morrison]

Rob is right about thinking too much about the bow and not enough about the arrow and BH setup, Also about tuning you setup to get the most for what you have. Carbon is not going to make you a better hunter or a better shot. If you can't hit a spot speed will not help and penetration is a moot point. Once you have confidence in your hunting, Tuning and have shot enough animals that you don't have to ask questions about penetration or am I shooting the right arrow setup... Things that you know are right and don't need to Someone else s blessing that you are right. At that point you will know if carbon and or foam is right for you...... Time will tell, I know at my age it is right for me I need the extra FPS and smoothness.
John I agree 100%

[Bob Morrison]

I just ran some number on a different Carbon, I'm planning on using same poundage same arrow same draw Recurve,44.5# @ 26" 510 grain arrow. Average over 5 shot though shooting machine. one was 169.5  other was 165.3. That's 2 different Carbons. So just because you have carbon in your limbs can mean different things. The faster carbon in this case was a little smoother on the draw also.

[grayfeather]

I really like carbon.I shoot low weight bows 40-43# and it really improves the energy,=,s speed.They are the smoothest ,bows I have found.My 40# bow has the speed of my 46# non carbon.Also no stacking , just a pleasure to shoot with carbon.My friends say they feel great.I shoot an ACS, Legends bow, Tomahawk ss,

[Sixby]

I love hearing from John and Bob and really all who have contributed to the thread. I also agree with what Rob said.
Here are a couple of thoughts as I read this.
One. I sincerely wish and work toward producing the best performing bow I can build. I do this not to just have a bow that is a couple of feet faster but so that all archers can have a bow that will be the best bow that they can own and will perform the best for them. there are tons of guys that do not have the bodies of Atlas , have shorter draws ect that greatly benefit form any added performance they can have.

Carbon will do this in fact. But only when used properly.

I loved what John said about meticulously testing and therefor knowing what it actually does. This is , as I have already stated what seperates someone that just tosses a stick of carbon somewhere in a limb and Voila!!! now has a carbon bow that will outperform all other bows and shoot arrows over the moon.

John said carbon is a waste when under veneers. I agree to a point and the point is this. There are veneers and then there are veneers.

When you put carbon under veneers and clear glass you cannot use the average .030 veneer. I carefully grind the veneer to .010 and use .020 glass, then the carbon.  This places the carbon .030 fr0m the back of the bow and allows the carbon to work. Granted it does not work to the degree that it works when directly on the back of the bow but it does add noticibly to the performance of the bow.

 Depending on which limb design I am doing this with it will add from 3 to 5 fps to the average speed against the glass bow.

I also agree with what John said about having to start from scratch when designing a bow limb for carbon. For instance one reason I redesigned my Talon 1 limb to the Talon 11 limb was that I planned to eventually use carbon on the limb and carbon would be very difficult , if not impossible to use on the Talon 1 due to the sharp degree of recurve in the limb. With carbon one of the very first things that you learn is to avoid curves as on the compression side it overstresses the core.

Therefore Having a static tip recurve with limited tip bend really helps when thinking carbon friendly. I definately would , at least in theory, advise to not use carbon in a working recurve , on the belly side. I did build one and it is about 8 years old and still shooting but I feel blessed in that point and its still not something I would do again or reccomend.

All this said, by far my best results are when using carbon directly on the back.

I will not use carbon directly on the belly as I have had problems with that . I will use it under light glass on the belly or as bro Kirk described over light glass on the belly.

What I have noticed is when I use biased carbon on the belly there is a tremendous jump in stability and in poundage.

Whether this will eventually lead to a bow limb that is completely superior to all other limbs I have tested is to be seen. Still working on that one. I do know we all have a lot to learn and I do not in anyway believe its all been done yet.

I am building a Christmas bow for Bro. Kirk that is going to tell me some things. That is if it comes out right. LOL. If not then back to the drawing board.

Ain't life grand!!!!

God bless you all and Jesus loves you, Steve

[SERGIO VENNERI]

I agree with Rob, i had the same conversation with Earl Hoyt and he reiterated the same things he told Rob.His exact words were: "carbon and foam limbs work well on Olympic Recurves, because it improves consistency. In other words if you are shooting in Arizona at 80 meters one day and in Florida a few days later the humidity would affect the performance of the same Bow adversely, when you are shooting a 41# recurve at 80 meters consistent performance is important. On a 60# recurve it makes little difference at any yardage". I love my recurves just the way they are! The biggest and most economical improvement in the last 15 years is Fastflite.

[FerretWYO]

Originally posted by Bowbldr:
I just ran some number on a different Carbon, I'm planning on using same poundage same arrow same draw Recurve,44.5# @ 26" 510 grain arrow. Average over 5 shot though shooting machine. one was 169.5  other was 165.3. That's 2 different Carbons. So just because you have carbon in your limbs can mean different things. The faster carbon in this case was a little smoother on the draw also.

This is interesting in that I have never thought about different carbon lams having that much varieance.  I have talked in length with several bowyers over the years about placment in the stack and things like that.  I have shot some zipper carbon and some Morrison Carbon and they were awesome. I never thought about that not being the same carbon that is in my palmer.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ooooooooh i love Christmas bows!      

The one thing that I've really noticed using carbon under veneers, and Sixby and i have been sharing our test results on this too... Is that using very thin veneers also allows more distance between the belly carbon and the back carbon in you limb thickness that bowyer's refer to as "The Stack". using thinner carbon with more separation between the two pieces in the core adds serious limb stability to a recurve limb..... once you take this concept to the next level, you can narrow up the limbs considerably with rock solid torsional stability and this in itself jumps the performance of the bow way up. Some of these bias weave 45/45 lay ups are like putting ultra light rebar in a limb.... but the design is critical.


what a great thread this turned out to be....  

[LYONEL]

I like the sound of using carbon & foam so long as the aesthetics & reliability of the bow are not affected.I have never shot a bow with either so I find this thread very interesting as I am keen to learn more.What would the best layup be for a take down recurve,etc types of carbon,placement types of foam? I would like to still have clear glass & beautiful timber veneers visible as one of the important things to me is the beauty of traditional bows.

[LYONEL]

I like the sound of using carbon & foam so long as the aesthetics & reliability of the bow are not affected.I have never shot a bow with either so I find this thread very interesting as I am keen to learn more.What would the best layup be for a take down recurve,etc types of carbon,placement types of foam? I would like to still have clear glass & beautiful timber veneers visible as one of the important things to me is the beauty of traditional bows.

[Sixby]

Lyonel, Taking your likes into consideration I would suggest a glass bow with a light weight core. foam or yew . CArbon on the back only and glass with a fancy veneer on the belly side of the limb. This makes a very high performance bow with a very classy look.

God bless you, Steve

[LYONEL]

Thanks Steve,I guess clear glass & veneers on the back of the limb as well won't work to well.

[Sixby]

Lyonell, It works as long as the glass and the veneer is extremely thin. I have built a lot of bows like that and they are beautiful and they are very fast. Just not as fast as using straight carbon on the back is.
However I am in agreement with you that beauty is a great part of the bow and is very important. Sn akeskin on the carbon is a great way to go because it is so thin it does not keep the carbon from performing.

God bless you, Steve

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just can't believe you would put a filthy old snake skin over perfectly good carbon...    


you know how fond of snakes i am bro...  

[legends1]

Sixby , i would have to disagree with the snake skin.A know alot of people like the look me included.In my recurve the loss in fps was 6fps.The snake skin is thin but adhesive and extra finish slows down the response of the limb.I have also tested the tape type skins and found no performance loss.I ran this test early this year and this is what I found in my bow design.I honestly think most will find similar results.

[Sixby]

You are adding a little tite bond and some finish. Buttttttttttt. thats a lot lighter than glass and veneer and that has to be finished too. A thin layer of tight bond and a snakeskin can't add very much weight. That is unless you used Barges. That would.
Best performans is definately straight carbon on the back. I certainly agree with that. Just giving the options.

God bless you all, Steve

Here is my only experience with carbon. I have a Sarrels Blueridge longbow that I love. It is my everyday go-to bow. I wanted a back-up bow so I ordered another one just like the one I had with black glass limbs. Mr. Sarrels is a very good friend of mineso when I went to pick up my new back-upo bow he hands it to me and says "Look what i did! I put carbon in the belly and back for you. I was actually a little disappointed at the time because I was after something that was gonna be the same as what I already had. Not to worry, as I began to shoot it I could not see any difference. I put it through the chronograph and both bows; one with carbon and one without; shot exactly the same speeds. So I ended up with just what I wanted. And no, I will not ever order and pay extra to have carbon in the limbs of a bow after seeing this comparison.

Bisch

[legends1]

Sixby,I did use barges ,I should have mentioned it by name.There might be better ways to do it,I just wasn't interested in working with it.I may revisit the snake skin thing again some day.

[Sixby]

I'm so smart my head hurts LOL . When I first heard of people using Barges I though oh no that is going to be too heavy. . Tite Bond 11 or 111 is the stuff. It drys to almost nothing when the water gets out of it. Sticks great too.
God bless you, Steve

[sawtoothscream]

i thought about it for awhile when ordering my custom.  after much thought i decided 3-4 fps isnt worth the extra cash.  I got yew and i dont know how the bow could draw any smoother.