Speak up or keep your mouth shut???!!

[String Cutter]

I was on a bear hunt afew years back. I was so excited going to Canada for the first time. It was very special to me and very new.
Well after meeting the guide and getting to camp I got to meet the other guys that I would be sharing camp with for a week. We all BS'ed and had a good time. Until we broke out the bows... There was one guy there that you just could tell wasn't very good with his bow. He said he had been shooting for afew years. But you could just tell that he hadn't been shooting long. Kind of reminded me of my 6 yr old putting an arrow on her string. Then we got down to shooting.. I ain't even near the best shot in the world but this guy had about a 3 foot shot group @ 15 yards...  He finally gut shot a bear afew days later. I just new that it was going to happen.
What do you guys think I should have done?? Should I have spoken up or kept my mouth shut like I did?? I mean on one side he paid his money.. But on the other I think everyone else in camp knew he shouldn't be hunting with that recurve... Was it unethical for me to be quiet??? It has bothered me everytime I think about it...

[gonzoso]

That's a tough one.  You don't wanna tell the man he's a lousy shot, that won't go over well.  

And you don't wanna just let him do poorly and injure animals.  I would think the safest thing to do is offer suggestions and help him shoot better?  Perhaps he had some flaw in his form making him shoot poorly.  I'm new and I had a couple of days of great progress when I made breakthroughs in one way or another, perhaps you could cause one!

Perhaps consult the guide and have him arrange some sort of accuracy test or something.

However the bottom line is that its his choice and decision to shoot, right or wrong and not yours to make.  Hopefully he felt rotten about gut shooting a bear and it inspired him to work harder at learning to shoot....or give up hunting with trad gear.

[JamesV]

I think you did the right thing, paddle your boat and let him paddle his.

[Looper]

Well, that's tough to say. I think I would have talked to the guide first about your concerns. A quality guide isn't going to let just anyone go out start flinging arrows. After all, he's the one that's going to have to go in after a wounded bear. If the guide saw that guy shoot and let him go anyway, well that's foolish in my mind.

If the guide refused to say anything, I think I'd find a way to give the fellow a little coaching. If he was resistant to that, well, that's all you can do.

Unfortunately, the world is full of people that won't take the time to become proficient enough to hunt. And it's not just traditional archers. I've got family members that are like that. It's incredibly frustrating to have them ignore advice and offers to help them shoot better and then listen to how they "got a shot off" or "I hit him but we didn't find him." All we can do is diplomatically educate them.

[Margly]

I'm in the lane where I'm trying to mind my owm business! BUT if I see something that is cruelty waiting to happen I'll speak my mouth(so to speak)

I guess in that circumstance you where I would have talked to the outfitter!
If it eas bad form I would have tried to help him out.

We will all make some mistakes in the woods sooner or later, but if you dont have the gift of seeing that your shooting is really bad and might with almost certanty make wounding, someone must step up and give you the signals...


That said I really understand that you had problems telling it loud.
In the end it should have been the outfitter that should have stopped him!

[LV2HUNT]

Hard to say as you cannot judge everything from a target session. If he was hunting with other people and there was a real issue with his shooting then it would be up to them to step up. They would be in a better position to know if there was a problem and how to deal with it.

[straitera]

He was legal so that makes it hard. Though I won't hunt w/some guys because of what I perceive is less than ethical/justifiable, doesn't mean they won't hunt. Lead by example. Otherwise you;ll make a hard headed enemy.

OMT, no guarantees. Experience doesn't mean every shot is perfect. It does lessen the chances of crippling or losing animals however.

[Al33]

Did you offer to help him shoot better? Everyone needs a coach, even Tiger Woods, so approaching him from this perspective might have helped him tighten his groups and you would have felt better about trying to do something about the situation. Asking him something like; "If you like I might be able to help you improve your shooting by showing you some techniques I have learned over the years.". Maybe the guy was too embarrassed to ask for help.  

[Rob DiStefano]

three foot groups at 15 yards?

looks like a newbie when fitting an arrow to the bow string?

without a doubt, if i witnessed a bowhunter at camp shoot that poorly, i'd have a serious conversation with that person about heading out to hunt.  that person can do whatever they want, but at least i would have said what needed to be said.

and what about the guide/outfitter?  should they not care about the hunting abilities of their clients?  guess not, in this case ....

[MCS]

Some guys just can't shoot well on targets in front of others. You did the right thing. Just enjoy your hunt.

[Tajue17]

I hope thats the case with most people because I personally have seen the worse trad shooters on a 3D course who actually hunt but almost can't even make a lung hit on a Rinehart standing deer.

I wish my state would bring in the accuracy test for all bowhunters because its that bad!

I can't say its more so trad  than wheels but it comes down to people do not know how to tune and/or set-up a bow, they don't practice, they won't admit they are overbowed, or even with compound shooters some of those guys don't have a clue on picking the correct yardages on real animals (where you can't always reach their range finders) honestly for kicks everytime you meet up with other bowhunters ask to check out their arrows and see how many have dull broadheads,,, I knew a guy with a compound that when he shot deer there would be NO blood on the ground because it was like they where getting stuck with a field ppoint his thunderheads where so OLD and DULL.

I guess I keep my mind shut because who knows maybe the guys having a bad day but I judge myself and thats it.  

when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

[Doc Nock]

My gut leans with Rob #99.

My personal experience would tend to shade that a bit. About the time "righteous indignation" rears it's head and lures ME into sharing my perceptions, it turns out I'M the one who goes and muffs something I shouldn't!

They tell us that what we say we'd do in a tough situation is often not what we actually do when "stuff happens".

I HOPE I'd have quietly taken the outfitter aside and asked if he had a stand at 6 yrds for this guy cause there's going to be a problem out there!

But then SC, hindisight as they say, is always 20-20!  At the time, I hope I'd have done something... but regardless, the better question might be, "What would you do NOW?" if you were again in a similar situation?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Tajue17:
... when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

now that just makes good common sense and validates the hunt for both the hunter and hunted ... and the outfitter/guide.

[Big Ed]

I usually have to stick my foot in my mouth.

[rraming]

3' at 15 yards, maybe he had a medical issue!

[David Mitchell]

I don't feel it is my place to tell a guy who has paid his money and traveled maybe some distance that he needs to just go home or has no business hunting.  That call is the outfitter's but it would be OK in my mind to tactfully bring it to his attention.  Tough spot to be in for sure when you want the most ethical thing to be done. The farthest I would go is to privately share with the outfitter what I had seen and leave the next call to him.

[Swamp Yankee]

The outfitter is in a tough position too.  In most cases, the outfitter doesn't even meet the clients until they've taken time off from work and spend a chunk of change in travel costs.  Personally, I might have tried to help the guy out to improve his shooting the best I could. Maybe have a discrete conversation with the outfitter to give this guy some special attention by putting him in places where he is only likely to get less than 10 yard slam dunk shots or none at all (heavy brush area etc); not easy with bear though.  The problem with accuracy tests is they are pretty easy to pass with a sight because they are almost always given at a fixed distance.

[Bill Carlsen]

I'm with Dave Mitchell on this one. Guides and outfitters have something to say about  how their clients are prepared for a hunt.

[Margly]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

Originally posted by Tajue17:
... when I hunted with Ray Hammond he wanted to see me shoot to make sure I knew how to hit a boar and that was cool.

now that just makes good common sense and validates the hunt for both the hunter and hunted ... and the outfitter/guide. [/b]

X2

[BeNoIt]

Ethics not only encompass the necessity of us as bowhunters to do the right thing but to be watchful that others are doing the right thing. Turning a blind eye is never the answer. Going about things humbly is.

I think you would all agree that if someone was taking deer illegally you would say something. How is this really different. Someone is unprepared to hunt and is going to wound an animal. That is unethical. Dealing with that in a gentle way is very important but it must be dealt with. In this case the guide should have been notified. How he dealt with it would have determined for me whether that guide was high quality or not and would have ultimately determined whether I would use them or recommend them in the future.

I know that we all can make a bad shot, and I hope that it never happens, but to knowingly enter into a situation where that is not only a probability but a strong possibility is just not safe.

--End rant...

Blessings all.