Speak up or keep your mouth shut???!!

[wingnut]

Every outfitted hunt I've been on has had a practice butt to warm up on.  The guides would hang around and observe the proficiency of the clients.  I've never had a person shoot 3 ft groups but have seen poor shots.  Those guys get put in close range stands and get schooled on shot placement.

On the other hand, I had a buddy when I first started bowhunting that was a very bad shot on targets.  But he shot and killed a bunch of game with one shot kills everytime.

If this guy had ten ringed the bear, would there be a thread here?  How many other unrecovered bears were there by the "good shots"?

Mike

[Biggie Hoffman]

Originally posted by wingnut:
Every outfitted hunt I've been on has had a practice butt to warm up on.  The guides would hang around and observe the proficiency of the clients.  I've never had a person shoot 3 ft groups but have seen poor shots.  Those guys get put in close range stands and get schooled on shot placement.

On the other hand, I had a buddy when I first started bowhunting that was a very bad shot on targets.  But he shot and killed a bunch of game with one shot kills everytime.

If this guy had ten ringed the bear, would there be a thread here?  How many other unrecovered bears were there by the "good shots"?

Mike

Yep.........

[Bowwild]

I won't criticize your decision regarding this fellow's poor warm-up shooting.   I would have shot better groups beside his and then offered like a few have written above, "I've been instructing folks in archery a long time.  If you aren't satisfied with your groups I see a couple things I could help you with."

If he accepts then let the coaching begin.  If he says he'll be ok without the help, you wouldn't fix anything by commenting upon his personal hunting ethic.

Poor shots seldom make good hits on game. Great shots sometimes make poor hits on game.

If I were the outfitter of someone like this I'd put him in a stand where NO game will show up or where the only shots possible are point blank. To heck with repeat business.

[Bjorn]

I have had guides give proficiency tests-generally take the form of "let's shoot BH at that 3D target over there". I'm in favor of that. If I were running a hunting business that's what I'd do.
But to answer the question presented here I'd have kept my mouth shut and minded my own shooting.

[Scott Teaschner]

Hunting is such a personal endeavor. You have people from all walks of life that may participate in the sport. With that you will have different stages of growth from beginner to experienced. You will also have casual hunters who may not even think of the hunt till the first frost. Then you have the guy like me and a lot of you. For us the season never ends. Having guided you see this often and this is not only bow hunters it is rifle hunters as well. The stories are never ending on the things that happen. But the one thing that is for certain no matter what we all have the right to pick up a weapon and by a license and go hunting.


  I guided a nice guy who was in great shape and could keep up in the hills going after elk. He shot a compound and shot in front of everyone before heading in the back country. His shooting skill where fair. As we hunted I could tell he did not have many animals under his belt and was some what new to bowhunting. He missed two elk one morning which did not surprise me. Back at camp I saw him slip of with his bow. I waited a little bit then walked over. I found him adjusting sights which bothered me a little but the thing that happened next really bothered me. After he shot and we retrieved his arrows I  found an arrow with a broad head missing. So I started to dig for it and found it. As I inspected it I saw no epoxy or hot melt on the insert. I said to him the shop that put your arrows together never epoxied your inserts in. He informed me they where. I said no there is nothing on this insert. He said I built the arrows and used fletching cement to glue them in. By the way these are aluminum arrows. I said to him that will never hold you need hot melt or epoxy. He then became a little upset and informed me he found it to work good enough from his experience. I stoped there I had nothing to fix his arrows with any way and if I pushed there was going to be a problem. He never connected he missed everything he shot at and it was at least 4 elk he missed. But if he did and say he hit rib even I have no doubt that arrow would come flying back with the broad head stuck in him.


  With that being said what do you do? The only thing is education. I can not give some one experience that comes with years in the field. But I can give them solid facts that can shorten there learning curve. I know for a fact that if I have 5 hunters in a camp and I have a outline of a elk on paper. If I then ask them to draw the bone structure of the front leg and shoulder. Then add heart lungs and liver just roughly. They more than likely will all fail. But if after they fail and I pull out my anatomy book go over it with them and have them draw it again they will remember it the rest of their lives. This is some thing that takes 15 minutes and should be mandatory but I guarantee most don't know.


 So what can we do? We need to pass are knowledge on to other hunters. We all have to be active. I don't want to start a big mud slinging thing here. But if you are to the point where your level in the sport has brought you to chipping your own heads and building your own bows that's great. But we need to realize that not every one can do that. Maybe a guy that will be to that point down the road should be shooting a carbon or aluminum arrow that they did not build themselves. Maybe an emphases on good form and shooting habits should be in order with out being looked down upon. Some people just don't need a variable of a wood arrow in there program in the beginning. The should not feel inferior or think they are cheating. We all start some where. So help out who ever you can and hopefully we will see less of these problems.  

 Scott Teaschner

[J. Holden]

I'm not gonna say what you should have done.  What's done is done.  It appears to me though you are bothered by your lack of action.  Not calling you out, please understand.  This happened years ago though and it still bothers you?  

I witnessed a hunter kill a buck before a doe on public land.  Public land rules stated  that you needed to kill a doe first.  I reported the guy to the DNR.  I felt bad at first, like a snitch.  But looking back on it I know I did the right thing.

It's my belief that one of the biggest problems with men, and society as a whole, in todays age is that we're too passive.  In-action is killing us.

I'm not advocating being a bully or a hot head.  But with some tact and intestinal fortitude we should be standing up for what we feel is right.

-Jeremy  

[straitera]

Well said Scott well said. Proud of all you guys here concerned to do the right thing. Didn't know so many felt the same as I. Many of you know from my PM's & e-mails my sincere take on ethical hunting. It's a near mission of which I must be careful not to alienate but to instill sound ethical principles.

MOF, I thought that is exactly what TG was all about. Do your best, offer what constructive criticism is warranted (sans attitude), & leave it better than you found it. Nossir, I'm no expert. Have a long way to go. Good stuff!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Scott,

i have no idea what you are talking about the need for epoxy on inserts. I have taken at least a dozen Roosevelt elk using hot melt glue on my inserts with aluminum shafts.... i actually prefer using hot melt glue so i can rotate my broadheads.

Granted.... Fletch tite would be a poor choice. but there is nothing wrong with using a good hot melt glue on inserts for hunting. I've taken at least 40 big game animals including wild boars with aluminum shafts, and have never lost a single broadhead unless you shoot a rock after its passed through.

When you go to an outfitter to hunt it's the guides responsibility, not yours to say something. In most cases they would probably send a rifle back up for this guy. a lot of outfits use a rifle back up with bear and moose for all archery hunters, and even rifle hunters.

These guides have seen it all. it has nothing to do with ethics, it has to do with dollars and cents to them.... i think if i was a guide and saw that kind of shooting I'd tell the customer that if he gut shot a bear with that set up, its going to cost him double to track it and dispatch it...... a wounded bear is a very dangerous animal.

i couldn't have kept my mouth shut if i would have been there. i'd have told the the guide to send a back up for this schmuck and gave him a wide berth. At that point its a little bit late to be giving archery 101 lessons.    :rolleyes:  

The last outfitter i went to would not let us hunt boars without a rifle back up until we showed him how we could shoot our bows first, AND...secondly we hunted together and both of us carried high powered hand guns on our hip. Then he let us stalk our own boars....We both harvested our boars with a bow, but that 357 mag  was a big comfort a couple times. Those russian boars are nasty beasties....

Kirk

[TxAg]

God gave me 2 ears and 1 mouth so I try to listen twice as much as I talk. I'd probably keep my mouth shut but it would be tough.

[BeNoIt]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
These guides have seen it all. it has nothing to do with ethics, it has to do with dollars and cents to them....

Understand... AND this requires a certain responsibility from me if I am to act ethically, i.e. to avoid those that promote hunting in that way.     (I also understand that this is not entirely true for all that provide this service)

Blessings to all. A good discussion and lots of good comments and thoughts.

[PaddyMac]

I was on the other end of this one this spring. My first sharpenable broadheads that I'd gone over and over and over on a stone. I went over to a friend's house, a guy who has been shooting trad since before the sun was invented, to shoot into his 3D targets. First thing he does is pull one of my arrows out and feels the broad head. Didn't say a word, but there was that bob of an eyebrow that if you pay close attention to things you can't help but notice and him holding a "sharpened" broadhead like it was a rock. Didn't say a word. I was embarrassed, but more than that, I got the message, and it sent me back to the TG search mode, videos, Murray Carter, a file, stones and strop. Next time he felt my hunting broadheads in September there wasn't a flicker of recognition. Complete poker face. Just verrrrrry carefully got his fingers off that Terminator and put the arrow back in my brand new Great Northern taking the time to carefully line up the blades to the slits. When you know you know but you don't always know when you don't. Sometimes we need help with that.

It wasn't comfortable getting the message but I'm glad I did when I did.

I say whisper. If he's listening he'll hear it. And if he's not, yelling won't do any good.

[YORNOC]

Delicate issue to be brought up carefully.  IMHO its the guides responsibility in this case, but a friendly hint from others may not be a bad idea. BUT, you NEVER know when comments can open a nasty can of worms. Lots of different people out there, you've gotta be ready for anything.

[Jeff Strubberg]

It seems like a good idea to bring it up with a pat on the back and some advice when you're alone with the guy.  Maybe suggest an aiming technique or something to get him through the hunt, advice on short shots, that type of thing.

Nothing good comes out of calling down someone who is having trouble in front of others.

[JamesKerr]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
three foot groups at 15 yards?

looks like a newbie when fitting an arrow to the bow string?

without a doubt, if i witnessed a bowhunter at camp shoot that poorly, i'd have a serious conversation with that person about heading out to hunt.  that person can do whatever they want, but at least i would have said what needed to be said.

and what about the guide/outfitter?  should they not care about the hunting abilities of their clients?  guess not, in this case ....

I 100% totally agree Rob.

[canoeman]

I'd probably just recommend that he puts a few more arrows on the string at once.

[MikeW]

I usually speak my mind. I feel it's unethical too hunt big game if you shoot that poorly. I would have pulled him to the side and explained that to him and then tried to help him with his shooting.

I hate to see game wounded or suffer.

[BobCo 1965]

Maybe I would have tried to help him out somewhat. But he has every right that I do to be in woods as far I know.

Believing in a proficiency test in order to get licensed is a whole nother issue or debate.

[Kituwa]

Are you telling me 3 foot groups are not normal?

[vintage-bears]

When bear hunting in New Brunswick, Canada back in the day, The outfitter invited us ALL to shoot at targets to "sharpen up" after a long drive.

He did'nt say that he "needed evidence" of our shooting abilities, but that's what he was doing.
And I totally understood it.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Kituwa:
Are you telling me 3 foot groups are not normal?

at 15 yards???  surely you jest, sir.   :D