2 Blade vs 3 Blade Shock Effect

[YORNOC]

Happened to me once with a black bear. Two blade, quick pass through, the bear flinched, looked around and went back to chewing grass.
Like everybody is saying, the head may not matter so much as long as you get a non bone or tendon pass through.... but GOOD LUCK with that.
Keep 'em sharp and shoot straight.

[longbowray]

Shot a cow elk with a WW she jump , them with back to eating and just fall over within 60 sec .

[Guru]

Good topic Bill...

Sure she didn't go far and maybe didn't even know what happened....but I'm bothered by the fact that she lived so long!

 I'm a firm believer in the more ya cut, the more they bleed, and the quicker they die!

With a perfect shot like you described with big 3 blades, I can't remember one not going down in 10 seconds or so.

Even back when I shot 2 blades, I never had one just stand around....

[YORNOC]

Had a buck I heartshot once go almost 500 yards into a swamp. When I finally dragged the brute out of the muck, it indeed had a hole right through the heart. A passthrough with a zwickey 2 blade.  I was dumbfounded.
 Wonder if the extra blade would have shortened that?  The bloodtrail did look like a herd got slaughtered though, no lack of heavy blood. Sprayed everywhere.  Adrenaline?
The calm bear I discussed earlier was out in about 30-40 seconds also. Heavy blood, just took its time to die I guess...
 

[Rick Perry]

yup ......... with a Zwickey Delta 4 blade ,I shot completely through  ......... Buck continued eating acorns while slowly walking , I could then hear his labored breathing and he fell over dead .

 While field dressing I found that the Zwickey had passed dead center through the heart . To me this illustrates the fact that a sharp well placed arrow is not "painful" to the animal . Heck he just fell asleep after eating a meal , just like most of us !!!! ......... LOL

[zipper bowss]

I have had similar reactions from deer on a few occasions but only on broadside shot deer. It seems that there is less trauma around an entrance wound on a broadside shot compared to a quartering shot if the quartering shot enters through the ribcage and not behind.  Maybe it has as much to do with shot angle as it does with the type of broad head.
 I have noticed much more trauma to the area around the entrance hole, on animals that are shot quartering.  Some so severely that it looked like the animal had been shot with a gun.  Although there is always some trauma around the entrance hole even with a 2 blade it has been much worse with the 3 blade shot animals.  Again, much more noticeable on quartering animals.  It seems to me that the level of trauma around the entrance is pretty similar between 2 and 3 blade heads on broad side shot animals.  Don’t get me wrong I love a 3 blade head just as much as a 2 but this is what I  have noticed.
Yes all my broad heads are shaving sharp.
Bill

[Roger Norris]

I like this thread. I have been re-thinking broadheads all season. For the last 2 years I have been using either Trailmaker heads (3 blades) or the HUGE Ace heads with the convex edge. Deer die quickly....the last one was only 45 yards or so and collapsed in full leap.

But my rethinking is based on two things....I have dropped down in bow weight, (51# vs 57#)and penetration has changed...no longer am I getting a immediate pass through. The arrow eventually comes out the other side, but it seems to work its way out, not zip through on initial impact. Also, the deer seem to react violently and run HARD.

These deer are dying quick...10-15 seconds....but I'm thinking about worst case....maybe a one lung hit...I would rather they not react so violently, and calmly hang around to die. I am really considering a strict 3:1 single bevel...any thoughts?

[doug77]

I've had a couple over the years when the arrow zipped right through them and they seemed to not react at all,just keep feeding and fell over. It's makes you feel good when that happens

doug77

[YORNOC]

Roger, cant go wrong with a single bevel. Definitely try it.

[stevewills]

I think in my opinion its more noise than anything.with my deer shot with compounds they normaly ran 70 to 100 yds.with a perfect arrow,now with my recurve wisper quiet,i havent had one go over 50 yds..i shot them with 2,3,4 blade bhs..with the muzzy phantom 4 blade(just started using them)the deer reacted instantly to the hit and went 40 yds..snuffer 3 blade all deer shot with these deer didnt react as much as the 4 blade,and my 2 blades they didnt react as much as any head ive used.the 2 deer shot with 2 blades never went over 30 yds...pick your poison,put it where it counts and they all work well

[Mike Bolin]

Neat thread! I am just watchin' this one. Have killed several animals with 3 blades and a few with two blades. Same kind of experiences as have been written. Good thread!

[wtpops]

I use a 3 blade and have had this happen a few times on hogs. The ones that acted like this did feel the hit, they would react to the hit with spinning around and looking as to see what other hog was messing with them, seeing nothing they would go back to feeding and rooting for a few seconds and then fall over dead

[Guru]

Roger, I don't see any reason why you aren't shooting thru your deer with those 3bl. at 51#'s?

Those trailmakers should be perfect medicine to shoot deer with your set-up.

#40, then maybe, but #51...what kind of arrow weight?

I myself would still absolutely take cutting more than tissue, than hoping, by shooting a narrow 2bl, that a deer wont react violently.

You just can't count on the non-reaction thing....as you can see by this thread....it simply doesn't happen very often.

I shot 2blades for 15yrs, Zwickey Deltas and Eskimos....shot a ton of deer and never once had one just stand and fall over....never even had one just walk away on a good hit.

Your "worse case"???  Especially with a one lung hit I want to cut as much of that one lung as possible!

 I shot a few with those 2bls.over the years, one lungers...they went a long way!

No doubt in my mind if I'd used what I use now, they would have never made it as far as they did. Experience since using 3bls. has proven it to me.

There's simply no guarantee they'll just stand and take it and not run off...

[Huntschool]

Excellent thread....

I think there are several things which play to the deer's reaction to the "shot".  All have been mentioned already... Here they are

Sharp BH
Quiet Bow
Deer at ease
soft tissue impact
2 blade/three blade BH
Complete pass through

I have looked back through my journal for the past 8 years and have found that of the deer taken during that time (11) 9 of them have gone less than 30 yards after the shot and 8 of those have just walked off a bit (less than 20 yds)  and expired.  Thes animals were all taken with two blade BH's that were very sharp, shot from bows in the 44-51 LB draw weight both LB and RC. All shots were 20 yds or under.

In two kills the deer were alert and a bit nervous.  Both of those bucks went more than 30 yds after the shot.  One went 60 yds full tilt and the other between 40 and 50 because he got caught up in a deadfall tree top. In both of these cases I did not get a complete pass through (arrow out of deer) but did get holes on both sides with arrow still in deer.

I suspect that this does happen more frequently with relaxed deer and all the specifics listed above.  For those hunting in more pressured areas this may not be the norm.

Bill, those Wayne Co. deer may just really like you and feel comfortable around you.. LOL..  At least that ole girl did.  Good question.

[gordydog]

I've had it happen several times with 2 blade eskimos and once with a snuffer. Quiet longbow.  Those shots were always side to side and at least a few inches behind the shoulder.  The deer don't do anything, no break in the rhythm of their walk, no reaction what so ever.  Walk themselves into the ground or stumble to the side like a drunk person trying to get their balance.  It's never happened on a heart shot or a shot that angles between the front legs.  I really like that shot of "slipping" the arrow through the deer.  Like falling asleep on the hoof.  Very peaceful way to put down an animal.

[Chuck Jones]

I shot a doe with a TUFF HEAD the other day, and had the same reaction. The deer was with another doe and a small buck. All three deer just stood at the shot, and then the doe I hit walked a few feet away and laid down. The other deer stayed for several minutes after the hit deer died. The arrow went between ribs and stuck in the ground.

I've had several deer react the same way with similar hits. The ones that run the hardest are with solid bone hits, like when the arrow hits the far leg on exit.

[scruff]

Good thread, I've shot 2 blades most of my life (although some did have inserts/bleeders).  My first bowkilled whitetail, circa 1970, was taken at about 15 yds, with a bear razor head through the base of the neck. Penetration was complete and the deer just reached up and grabbed another apple. This stunned a 16 yr old, who couldn't believe what he was seeing.  The deer chewed a few bites took 4 steps and fell dead.  I have had a few more not react to the shot, including a pretty decent black bear and an antelope, over the past 40 years.  I remember them all, but that first memory is still special.      Keep 'em scary sharp. DK

[Roger Norris]

Originally posted by Guru:
Roger, I don't see any reason why you aren't shooting thru your deer with those 3bl. at 51#'s?

Those trailmakers should be perfect medicine to shoot deer with your set-up.

#40, then maybe, but #51...what kind of arrow weight?

I myself would still absolutely take cutting more than tissue, than hoping, by shooting a narrow 2bl, that a deer wont react violently.

You just can't count on the non-reaction thing....as you can see by this thread....it simply doesn't happen very often.

I shot 2blades for 15yrs, Zwickey Deltas and Eskimos....shot a ton of deer and never once had one just stand and fall over....never even had one just walk away on a good hit.

Your "worse case"???  Especially with a one lung hit I want to cut as much of that one lung as possible!

 I shot a few with those 2bls.over the years, one lungers...they went a long way!

No doubt in my mind if I'd used what I use now, they would have never made it as far as they did. Experience since using 3bls. has proven it to me.

There's simply no guarantee they'll just stand and take it and not run off...

I may be over thinking it...ground kills have been pass throughs, out of a tree have not been.

My journal(s) (not vey complete) show 31 traditional bow deer kills and 1 caribou. Bow weights were 65# (all pass throughs)57# (mostly pass through) and 51# (pass throughs have all been 15-20 yards after the shot, meaning the arrow worked it's way out the other side). Of all those kills, I only recall ONE deer just standing there and falling over. Yet it seems like it happens to other guys all the time? If a narrow 2 blade head makes that happen more regularly, I might change heads.

From this thread, what makes the most sense to me, is that the broadhead never hits bone so they don't realize they are shot. I am ALWAYS aiming for that off-side shoulder area, so I am always slowing my arrow down, and hitting bone.....I think...    

Good conversation though....it's not just about a clean kill, it's the CLEANEST POSSIBLE kill.

[stalkin4elk]

I think one of the Ashby reports talked about how much more spooked game is without a pass through.I found that interesting because a bunch of local bowhunters were recently discussing passthroughs and agreed (their best scientific seat of the pants observations).
Shorter trails to downed game the better!

[Mike Bolin]

o.k. I'll throw my hat in the ring. I have not had much in the way of blood trails with 2 blade heads. There are several of us that are "on call" to help with tracking and dragging and the same group of us have bear/caribou hunted together. I have helped track over 20 black bears, 3 were hit with 2 blades- (none of these bears were mine.)

Bear #1 was heart shot with a 160 gr. grizzly....complete pass thru. A little hair at the site of the hit and NO BLOOD until we found the bear. Only 40 yards from site of the hit. Thick Canadian bush. 65# longbow, 700 gr. wood arrow.

Bear #2 was a double lung complete pass thru. Hair at the site of the hit, intermittent blood on the 80 yard (+/-) and a lot of blood when we found the bear. 2 blade dbl. bevel. 65# compound, 450 grain arrow.

Bear #3 was what we believed to be a single lung/liver hit. Complete pass thru. Spotty blood trail. Brought in a tracking dog. Bear was not recovered. 2 blade double bevel. 550 gr. arrow, 70# longbow.

I have killed a few deer with 2 blade heads. 3 that come to mind are- (these were all my hits)

Deer #1 8 point IL whitetail, double lung 1/4 away. Complete pass thru. Found NO BLOOD until we were within 10-15 feet of the deer. Followed scuff marks and overturned leaves for 2 hours. Deer had made it 75-80 yards. 2 blade dbl. bevel

Deer #2 mature doe broadside. Appeared to be a double lung shot, complete pass thru. Blood on arrow fletching indicated "lung blood". Minimal blood for the first 30 yards. Deer was not recovered. 2 blade single bevel. I did say "appeared to be dbl. lung". I must have only got 1 lung or we would've found the deer.

Deer #3 mature doe feeding on acorns. Broadside dbl. lung. She jumped a bit at the shot, went back to feeding and dropped over dead in a few seconds. No blood trail needed!. 2 blade dbl. bevel

The last 8 animal I have killed were all taken with 600+ grain arrows and 3 blades heads. Bows ranging from 48-55#@28" and I draw 28". All have been complete pass thrus.

6 whitetail deer, all broadside or slight 1/4 away. 5 dropped within my sight, 2 went less than 20 yards. 1 doe made it about 50 yards and then died and slid down a steep ridge another 50 yards.

2 bull caribou both died within sight. One made it 30 yards the other around 75 yards.

I guess what this means is "it depends". I do know that as I have matured as a bowhunter I am much, much more selective with my shots and I am a fanatic about sharp and I mean SHARP broadheads. If I pull an arrow from my quiver in the morning, I pull a different arrow out in the afternoon and I touch both of them up before I go back out again. That may not be necessary, but it gives me peace of mind!

I am not passing judgement on any type/brand of broadhead, just sharing what some of my experiences have been. That being said, I have pondered trying the Simmons heads from the results I have seen on this site. I have also bought 6-250 grain VPA Penetrator 2 blades to use on the upcoming VPA Hog Hunt....at least I might use them. Those Terminators have sure done a nice job for me so far!
Mike