Ashby Wisdom is confounding me...

[NotThe10thMan]

Hello, y'all...

I'm a new archer, that's been lurking a couple months, but now I've got a question that good friends and "Google" haven't been able to help me with...

I've read the "Ashby Reports", and they they  made excellent sense to me, I decided that was surely the way to go...

I'm shooting a couple different long bows that are both pulling about 60 lbs.  Both center cut, both 64" reflex/ Deflex with Fast Flight strings.

I decided that if I wanted to run the 250-300 grain tips, I should over spine my arrows a bit.  So, I got two dozen Gold Tip 75/95 blems from Big Jim's, and cut them to my preferred length of 28".

In short, the 75/95's are badly over spined for my 60 lb. bows.  With one bow, that's actually good for 65 lbs @28", no beaver balls, brace height dropped half an inch, and extending my draw another half inch I can barely make it function with the 300 grainers, but not "fly like a dart".  The 300 grainers are still a little over spined and fish tailing, and the 250's, are swimming for their lives...

I've never found a spine chart for heavy tips, but it seemed that for shooting the heavy 250-300 grain field points that was the sensible thing to do.  I reckon it wasn't?

So, can any of y'all impart some wisdom on how to recover from my ill concieved notions?

The easy answer is to add more point weight, but...350-400 grains up front??  I'm already running a 640 grain arrow with 21% F.O.C.  It just seems that the whole "Extreme F.O.C" thing must be going from "Extreme" to ridiculous at that point, but...I dunno, I am a neophyte here...

What would weight tubes do?  I also have a dozen shafts that are still uncut..would leaving an extra inch do the trick?  Maybe try footing the shaft?


Any thoughts, suggestions, or wisdom y'all could impart would sure be appreciated.  

Thanks!

[owlbait]

Start with full length shafts and go from there. You will be surprized how much length you can keep with the carbon shafts and get excellent results. You may even need to drop to 55/75. Good luck.

[rastaman]

You cut them too short to start with..

[Mike Bolin]

I would start off with the shafts full length and then cut them down a LITTLE (1/8"-1/4") at at time until you get the bare shaft arrow flight you are looking for. Are  using standard aluminum inserts? You could pick up some 50 and 100 gr. brass inserts and give that a try. Remember that the charts you do find are just suggestions/starting points. I shoot a high performance r/d longbow that is 55#@28" (I draw 28") and I am shooting .400 spine carbon with a 100 gr. brass insert and 250 grain heads. The charts say that there is no way this combo will work from my bow, but it does! Good Luck, Mike

[buckeye_hunter]

My biggest error was starting out by cutting carbons to the length I wanted not NEEDED.

[ChuckC]

Ashby's way is    A   way,  not    THE   way.

There is a whole lot of history with shooting arrows of all sorts at deer sized and bigger critters.  

A whole lot of them were succesfully killed using "other than Ashby" criterion.

  Let's not get too wrapped up in this.   Definately read his stuff.   Definately digest it.  Definately think about it. It makes sense.

Read other theories about arrow flight.

 Then make your own choices.

ChuckC

Originally posted by rastaman:
You cut them too short to start with..

BINGO!

Bisch

[ishoot4thrills]

Yep, you jumped the gun when you cut them off first.

Remember too that carbon arrows tend to run a little stiffer than other arrow material.

Personally, I like EFOC arrows(see my setup in my signature below) and I have had good success on game with that setup and great arrow flight.

[NotThe10thMan]

Y'all are quick!  Thanks!

I only draw 26.5", and I've been shooting 28" with aluminum and wood, so it seemed sensible to trim down to 28" with my carbon, also...Like I said earlier...it all made so much sense...in theory....(DOH!!)

The best recovery plan I have thus far is this:

Grab some 50 and 100 grain brass inserts for the arrows I've already cut..surely, a 350-400 grain tip will bring it back for me.  Maybe they'll work out for moose or brown bear some day.

Follow the conventional wisdom I should have followed the first time, and start the dozen uncut arrows from full length.  Hopefully I'll find a happy place between 32" and 28", and hopefully it won't be too strange for my sight picture, adapting from the consistent 28" shaft I've fired 20K times or so in the last eight months to something longer.  It still seems strange to shoot an arrow that much longer than my stubby little draw 26.5 draw length, but knowing myself, I'm well aware I can get hung up on details and quirks that prove to be absolutely insipid in the long run.

In the future, I think my plans will involve GT 55/75 shafts 5 GPI weight tubes, and brass inserts.

At the end of the day I reckon I just had a $100 learning experience, and there aint no way around it.  I reckon I've paid more money to learn less before.  On a positive note though, those blem shafts are one of the greatest bargains I've found!

Anyhoo, thanks for the thoughtful replies thus far.

[KSdan]

I have found that 1/4" increments on carbons can make the difference.  A weak spined bare shaft to perfect with a 1/4" cut!

Good Hunting
Dan in KS

[Ragnarok Forge]

Forget the weight tubes.   Get the weight all up front!   You can use brass inserts, heavy heads, and aluminum outserts up front.   This will help counter the stiff spine.   Most definately start with full length shaft and cut them down only if you have to.   Keeping all the weight up front will also increase foc which helps with penetration.   Also look at different gpi weight shafts in the same spine group you use.  You can lighten the arrow in the same spine weight.   I have found Easton shafts often are a light gpi.

[JimB]

Don't get 50 gr inserts for your 28" arrows.They won't be enough.You will need 100 gr inserts and at least 300 gr points.I've tuned 30" 7595's for my bows,53-56#,by using a 100 gr insert and 300 gr points.

[JamesKerr]

Originally posted by rastaman:
You cut them too short to start with..

Bingo I use a 340 shaft cut to 30.25" even though my draw is only 27.5"

[sweeney3]

Those shafts are going to be super-duper stiff at that length.  Bear in mind that the "75-95" or "55-75" or whatever rating is designed for super fast compounds, not traditional bows.  You might could get them tuned to your bow, but you'll need heavy inserts, heavy adapters, all kinds of weight that will probably make your shafts so heavy you'll be shooting a mortar round.  Try lighter shafts.

Frankly, unless you plan to get drunk and shoot cape buffalo in the shoulder or hip, you don't NEED all that to make clean, quick kills on the type of game that 99.99 percent of us hunt anywhere in North America.  Not saying it isn't good stuff or won't work, but come on.  Put a decently built sharp head in the right spot and the critter dies.  That's the way it works.

[NotThe10thMan]

I'll be a first year Bow Hunter next Spring.  I definitely intend to hunt black bear and moose this year.  My ultimate hunting dream would be a Grizzly.  

I'll keep muckin' with the ones I already cut, and add still more weight up front...what the heck, I got nuthin' to lose.  I'll more carefully trim the second dozen, and see how I shoot with them.

As far as my main shooting, I reckon I'll stick with my old standby POC shafts.  As much as I rant, rave and curse them, they really treat me pretty well, and I still got plenty of them.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Moose are the toughest animals in the group you mentioned. Lots of folks will tell you you don't need super heavy arrows for moose.  They are right, when you hit them in the right spot.  Shoot them in the wrong spot and you will be very happy you have EFOC arrows with a lot of mass. Weigth the nose up and you will have some super tough, heavy hitting, deep penetration arrows.

[BradLantz]

if you go up to 700-750 gr total weight and a 60# draw, you'll knock the animals down when you shoot them!  and that's not a bad thing  

I was shooting 700 grains last year with a 53# bow .... heavy IS GOOD.

[Rob DiStefano]

curious if yer holding weight is 60# @ yer 26.5" draw length?

unlike other shaft materials, carbons have a huge difference 'tween static and dynamic spine.  as an example, i use a 29.5" beman ics 500 w/250-300 up front out of 50-55# @ 29" r/d longbows.  they bareshaft like darts on a string.

this is where a carbon test kit makes sense and saves money real fast.  3 shafts each of various spines from 600-340 (or 500-340), one shaft of each flavor cut to your draw length plus one inch.  test out different front end weights without feathers.  something will work out best for ya.  

ps - don't be too hung up on the foc thing.  what matters most is a consistently well flying arrow of a decent gpp that matches yer bow's holding weight, with a really sharp cut on contact broadhead point, slipped nicely into the critter's vitals.  

[Friend]

Need to know the draw wt at your 26.5" actual draw length in order to provide some possibly more accurate feedback.

For me:
1. No arrow set-up is even considered possibly viable unless it is well tuned.

2. Ultra-EFOC set-ups I end up with typically have an arrow dynamic spine ~30# less than the arrow dynamic spine required by the bow.

Note: Using low gpi arrows such as Victory HV VForce arrows in conjunction with 100 gn and 50 gn inserts have greatly simplified achieving the EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrow designs. 400 - 6.2 gpi, 350 - 6.7 gpi and the 300 - 6.9 gpi. The V6 series/dozen is reasonably priced.

Testing and evaluating yourself will draw the most confidence building conclusions.

[NotThe10thMan]

With one of my bows- The main bow, and the one I originally bought the shafts for. I am pulling slightly over 60 lbs.  Like 61-63 lbs, depending on the scale used.  It's 66-68 lbs. at 28", once again, depending on the scale.

WIth the other bow (less than a week old for me used Bear Montana long Bow) It's only pulling 60 lbs @ 28", so I imagine that one is closer to 55 lbs.  It's not my main hunting bow though.  If I could get some of the carbons to work in it, that would be cool, but it's not really all that critical.  It's actually shooting great with my 450ish grain POC wood shafts.

I had one of them 3 AM thoughts last night, and remembered that I tried my friends 55/75 shafts that were also cut to 28", with 250 grain tips, and they were very under spined for my bow.  I'd forgotten that was one of my reasons for purchasing the 75/95 shafts.  If I wanna shoot the GT carbon shafts, it's just gonna have to be slowly trimming the 75/95 shafts in 1/4" increments.  I'm way far out of spending money for the next couple months, or at least spending on myself money, but maybe I'll have to check out some other brands of carbon shafts when I get a little spending money back in my pocket.

Thanks once again for your thoughtful replies.