New York Bucks Improving

[vintage-bears]

I'm sorry to read what you say Ron.
Has your area been overwhelmed with development taking away deer habitat?

I once worried of this in my area. We were once a dairy farm community surrounded by fields of corn, alfalfa and people who cared for the lands.

That is no longer. We had our share of development, believe me. Lot's of woodland now developed with house's.

the deer where less and less.

They have since adapted and they appear to be thriving.
..........Philip

[ti-guy]

Happy for you guys!Here in Quebec the goverment would need to be kicked in th B... and hunters should change their way of thinking and doing.Year after year gunners kill their spikes and forkhorn over piles of carrot and apples.They would think I'm crazy hangin' up a tree wearing blaze fluorescent orange and holding a stickbow letting pass a young immature six pointer!But I do'nt regret it a second!

[Stone Knife]

I hope they implement it around here, we pass smaller bucks only to have them shot up by gun hunters. That's why bigger bucks are hard to come by in my area.

[SteveB]

I certainley hope it ends in the Catskills and does not spread to central NY. LIke it was said, NY is a large and varied state for hunting - there is no one management tactic that will work statewide.

[Buffalo Two Fletch]

I agree with Ron W. about the decline in deer numbers (at least where I hunt in NY)over the past 10 years or so. A large 1100 acre property next to where I hunt has been practicing QDM for over 3 years and has only taken one 8 pointer in those 3 years of QDM. During those 3 years my deer sightenings have been the worse I can remember in over 30 years. I have no idea as to why there are so few deer but there are less deer. Perhaps hard winters, too many does taken, poor habitat, preditors killing fawns or ???

[frank the hunter]

here on long island it is getting better i saw 3 this year that was in the 130 class and had one 5 yards from me and i shoot right under him.

[KentuckyTJ]

[/qb][/QUOTE]Thanks Kentucky.
I can't lie. When this 3 point rule began 4 years ago, I was bummed out about it because I am not a trophy hunter by no means.
I was more than happy to take a spike with my recurve. In fact I was tickled if I did.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I don't know anyone given the chance to choose between two farms to hunt one full of spikes and four pointers and one full of 2-3 year old bucks that would choose the first.

[ron w]

I believe over the years there have been to many doe permits, and the State has not managed their forests for the benefit of wildlife. A huge problem is poaching with little chance of that changing.    Kentucky TJ, as far as choosing a farm to hunt with little buck or big bucks,just getting permission would be something, but never having taken a deer with Trad. gear, it would be a shame to have a good shot [ I have had 2 in 30 years ] and not be able to take my first deer because he was one point shy of the legal requirements. I feel the only way QDM could possibly work in New York would be to make it State wide, no exceptions and to shorten the gun season.....That WILL never happen, here I go venting again.....sorry!  

[razorback]

I remember when Gary Alt took over in PA. I had the opportunity to talk to him about it at a bear tagging. I was one of the only ones there who agreed with him. I live in the Adirondacks and can have 15 deer in th efield in front of my house, not one a buck or only a small spike. Have seen 3 decent deer here in 4 years. We could do with better management around here. I think the small bucks and too many does is killing the little guys. They wear themselves out chassing the girls and then succum to the harsh winters. Fewer does and more bucks would help solve this issue. I'm real glad some are having population success.

[Mint]

I'll give you my take on the flipside. Long Island use to have a lot of big deer but now that you can shoot multiple bucks after filling you doe tags and that you can use your buck tag in the shotgun season I have seen the nice bucks go down hill. I know of pleanty of hunters that will shoot a real nice 10pt or 8pt and then shoot a spike too. If they would go back to anteless only in the 3 week shotgun season things would get a lot better.

[ron w]

Mint....interesting!! See, every area has a different situation! I for certain do not have the answer.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Ron, and anyone who is curious about the area's he likes to hunt......

They need land managent. I know you and I ghave talked about it in detail.

The Adirandacks and this Forever Wild Bull crap needs to be balanced. Basically what is being done is the whole Park (largest in the US) is left to be a mature forest. Untouched!  I will not go into who helped get it this way as I know it will ruffle feathers.

This northern half of NY state needs to managed for everyone!  It would be in NY's interest to do logging in certain areas. They do not need to strip the land of all trees. They could set aside Untouched area's but to leave the woods alone is senseless. If a fire starts they put it out, that's an oxi moron if I have heard of one.  

Logging would provide jobs and revenue to the state. It could make a healthier land balance and increase wildlife.

The increased wildlife would bring back hunters who have given up on the wilderness and much needed business to the small towns that cover the park. To me its a no-brainer.Then they can impose antler restrictions there.

3 Point antler restrictions are great! I was adamantly against earn a  buck when it came out in WI for the first year. The common argument was people who thought they would see "el macho grande" and not be able to shoot him. Well come on, how often is the first deer you see and are able to shoot at, the biggest buck of your life?  The following years our group saw much improvement to Buck size and we saw MORE bucks than ever.

I understand for people who have yet to shoot a deer with a bow, it would be frustrating to have to let the first deer you ever see pass. I am still waiting for my first as well and will not be picky if legal. I am for antler restrictions though as I saw 16 spike bucks last year and never anything larger than a 3 point.

If the new found restrictions bring about a healthy population and balance, you will have more chances in the following years. I am all for that and would participate in the programs. There has been much research on the herd management practices they are proposing and using. Studies show they work provided everyone works together. If you dont do your part then you are the broken link not everyone else accused of being a potential problem.

I think what MINT is describing is a deer reduction management tool. They are trying to get rid of deer numbers by any means necessary. If they cannot get numbers down with hunters, then they spend money on hired snipers.

Bring on the 3 point rule to my area. I will eat does given the opportunity. Or they can forget about it. I certainly could care less at this point in my life.

[ron w]

I would love to eat a doe.....if I could see one!! Let alone get a shot at one!

[Izzy]

Charlie, there are enough deer in the Adirondacks that if you are able to adapt and read sign more than just  looking at tracks and rubs you will kill a deer there with some regularity. The numbers are nothing close to what we have down here but there are enough. I have a close friend who kills a buck every year in Schroon, Minerva or Indian Lake all of which have low deer densities. I have never heard him complain that there arent deer in the Adirondacks. My cousin, (No, Not Ray) kills at least a doe during bow season and a buck during gun season every year in Indian Lake, very low density.

         Before I started bowhunting again I hunted there more than in the southern zone and saw deer 2 out of 3 times, some close shots that I could have made with my longbows.

        And there are big bucks there as there have always been. Not like some imagine but they are there. They get big by age and low hunting pressure and not nutrition. Thats a hard deer to hunt and takes more time invested than I can put into it but they are there.

         Forest manipulation with logging would probably increase deer 10 fold. I personally like the idea of letting the land heal from 150 years of intense logging and revert back to wilderness (regrown wilderness if there is such a thing.)

  To stick to the thread topic the bucks are there (Dacks) as they have always been, not much improvement in antlers but theyre there. And it seems to me that in the Southern Zone, certainly there is antler improvement in many parts of the state due to self imposed restiction and antler regs (not my self imposed restriction, I like venison).    

[LongStick64]

I don't see it in my hunting area on Long Island. In fact there is a section on LI that is teeming with deer, but because hunting is not allowed the deer as you might guess are scrawny. They were close a few years back to implementing a small hunt only to have anti hunters vandalize people property so the local leaders stopped the proposed hunt. Now I'm curious this year on how the crossbow season is going to affect us here in Long Island where they will allowed to be used in the special shotgun season. Already know a few compound shooters that are getting ready now with crossbows. I can oly imagine that the herd will be greatly impacted. One reason I wish there was a primitive bow hunt season, even for just a week would be special.

[crotch horn]

Ron,
I hear you man.
y place up north has very little deer. They are there, but not many. Where I hunt in the southern zone there are lots of deer. Lots of posted land too. Not a problem if the land is hunted, but if not when the guns go off the deer know where to hang out during the day. I have seen better bucks down there the last 2 yrs though. No ARs there & not sure I want them. I pass little bucks by choice and thats how I like it.

[ti-guy]

Deer hunting is so cool,so much to learn about them.I went to seminars,read so many books,seen DVDS,walked the wood.But guetting so much info is totally worthless if the doe/buck ratio is disbalanced.Here,in the area I am,there's just no rut activity,there's no competition among the few bucks.I've seen 1 shy scrape and 1 not so rub in acres over acres!If we can damage deer herd then we can manage two! Can't we? I dream of getting a mature buck with my longbow here.

[Turkhunter]

All I can say for you New York guys is give it time. They implemented the 3pt rule here in Arkansas about 10yr ago and some areas saw immediate results others have taken awhile. The public land that surrounds my family's land here is one of those areas that has taken awhile. 10yrs ago if a fella killed a 70in 8pt he had himself a real trophy. Now in the last 2 seasons my dad got a 150in 10pt, My brother a 140in 12pt, and myself a 115in 9pt. Granted all were taken with rifles but please understand Im sharing this to show how the trophy potential has increased over the last 10yrs. Because of high hunting pressure in this area the numbers still arent great but more bucks are making it to be 4-7yrs of age to reach their potential.

[Ron Vought]

So here is my view of the Alt management plan in PA. I like the antler restrictions because everyone's opportunity at a nice buck is now very good on both public and private land. What I didn't like is we implmented a two week concurrent antlerless rifle season. That reduced the herd pretty dramtically across the state. I think we could have cut that out after a season or two. I have no problem with proper deer management and I get it but sometimes what is viewed as a good practice can go off course if not adjusted accordinly. The other side of this debate is private versus public land. I don't think this plan worked very well in some areas because the plan was 'cookie cutter' and not orginally tailored to address public and private land but I suppose that would take some creative planning and real adjustments.

Ron

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Originally posted by Ron Vought:
 I don't think this plan worked very well in some areas because the plan was 'cookie cutter' and not orginally tailored to address public and private land but I suppose that would take some creative planning and real adjustments.

Ron

Ron you hit the nail on the head.

There is no "fix it" button. Just like all good Things in life, it will take constant work and re-evaluation.