Why are Trad Guys so hostile to other bows?

[pumatrax]

Just saying my experience has been WAY better with trad hunters than with others in general...I shot compounds AND owned a couple archery shops as well over the years; most trad guys I've met do A LOT more practicing and true hunting than the guy that digs out his compound or rifle from under the bed a week before the season starts(if that)...in my opinion ;MOST dedicated trad guys are the cream of the crop...granted there are slobs every where you go...traditional archery is (in my opinion) more of a spiritual connection than any other "form" of hunting...at least it has been for me for the last 25 years

[Kevin Dill]

Situation: A guy pulls his weapon out "from under the bed a week before season" to go hunt. He kills 2 animals and is satisfied. The weapon is put away under the bed.

Is that a reason to dislike the man or his methods?

[Covey]

Originally posted by Doc Nock:
Much to give pause and careful thought printed here...

Once commented to some friends who shot wheels at an open 3D, "You guys take a long time to shoot, don'tcha?"

Therapy guy, with good humor, turned to comment "No longer than you guys scratchin for arrows after the shot"  Touche! We laughed...good point!

Thing is at "open" shoots, many of us get tempted to "try" at distances we know are not within our skill set with sticks.  Ergo, "to thine own self (and limits) be true!"    


Only thing I take hombrage with is that our state has now put string guns into archery season. Since we had our FIRST archery season, decades ago, a bow was defined as "hand-drawn and hand-held in the presence of game".  Xbows do NOT meet that criteria...period.

I don't like changing 30-40 yrs of law to meet mfg's economic pressures. I've always supported those with physical limitations getting permits and using Xbows to keep in the game... reasonable accomodations. Othewise, they're not archery as defined by our state law...  

Aside from that, I've seen rancor on both sides... where compound shooters, at a club OPEN shoot once ridiculed my group for having fun and laughing while they were "concentrating"--- and told us to shush!    :eek:  

Being a bit of a rebel, I inquired if we were "Playing golf or shooting 3d?"  Just a hard-core target group with 3x maginfication sights ahead of us...the rest of the Wheelies hooted at the comment...easing the tension for all but the purists!

Live and let live is a good view: Divided we fall, united we stand! We need us all to keep in the game in today's anti-movement driven world!

I do think we need to take a stand when technology promises to corrupt the very precepts of what has been legally defined as "archery" gear--- when the benefits are largely to those who stand to make a corporate profit.

But that becomes a personal preference. I will fight against the mis-use of the equipment, not those who legally use it.

Said it better than I ever could.
Well put!!    

Jason

[pumatrax]

never said I wouldn't "like" the man because of the method of take ; AS long as it was legal...but in general I have a higher degree of respect for traditional hunters who work hard at their craft...traditional hunters have to work harder and smarter to harvest game in general...sometimes it comes easy ; most times not...A LOT of guys give up on traditional archery because their perception is wrong...ie:if you HAVE to harvest something to "be" successful...use a compound or a rifle it will definitely increase your odds...

[Tajue17]

Originally posted by joe ashton:
I just worry that we could loose our primitive weapon seasons because of very high tech compounds and lord have mercy cross bows. Other than that we hunters need to be brothers.......

it has to be all or nothing,, around here the only folks shooting crossbows are handicap and I know off a couple handicap vets who use them because people chipped in and bought them as a gift. most people dont want anything to do with them, they are loud, heavy, and boring,and I hear they are a nightmare to tune..  yeah I guess like most compounds but don't forget those crossbows where around when ELB's where around so its part of the history.

as far as us losing the right to shoot sticks, I doubt it would ever happen as long as theres a community.  look at inline black powder rifles,,,,they are #1 BUT theres those others like myself who choose primitive and it will never change.

the only other way I'd say they would try to stop traditional bowhunting is if it didn't work or wasn't effective and we all know that will never be argued the success stories and photos are in the multi-millions..

I think what is important is when you encounter wheels or bystanders we need for the most part to act professional and ethical and don't show off and blow the shot which refects on the real hunt,, because what brought me here was actually seeing a guy shooting a recurve at a target butt in I think 85 and I thought it looked cool that he was actually hitting the circle, the sound of the bow and the sound of the arrows sizzling down range blew me away...

But I have no heroes or anyone that I ever looked up to that promoted or even taught me traditional archery or archery in general ..  I have to say it was that unknown person with the recurve that changed my life and if he was goofing off or missing everything I would of surely stuck with the Ithaca Double.

[Kevin Dill]

My only point is why do we even think more positively or negatively about a man because of the way he legally hunts? A lot of statements throughout trad archery circles seem to indicate a degree of condescension toward non-trad hunters, yet more respect for those who carry a stick. My contention is that the weapon doesn't earn my respect by even one single degree. The MAN earns my respect by what he does and how he behaves. Any guy can carry a weapon. If we assume the "weapon makes the man", that's a pretty foolish way to view people. There are a number of stickbow-carrying guys who might be better off shooting pool with their bows. I've seen some pretty ugly "tradditudes" in the 30+ years I've been hunting wheel-less. I personally think it's the "minority mentality" which causes some to constantly pick at the majority which does things another way.

Basically 100% of the comments I get from non-trad hunters are respectful and complimentary. They are struck by the success I can demonstrate. I hear trad guys talk about being "dissed" while shooting a 3D round with wheel folks. I think that happened to me once, about 25 years ago. I walked up to the guy and smiled. I used my mentor's favorite line...looked the guy in the eye and said "Meet me in the deer woods". THE LAST thing I do is pay attention to the chatter coming from a target guy's mouth...but then...I don't really give a fiddler's fart about 3D ranges. I hunt.

My mentor? He's a dedicated wheel man. He helped me get into a recurve 30+ years ago. He's still killing big deer. If he ever heard anyone from the trad community diss his bow, you know what he'd do? He'd walk up to you and smile. He'd extend an invitation.

"Meet me in the deer woods".

[CanadaCanoe]

I am not jealous of compound bow users, or crossbow users, or even rifle hunters (I do use a rifle at times).  In fact, I sometimes pity certain people who I see as overly caught up in the consumerism of outdoor sports.

My observation is that those people who consistently take only the easy way, and wish to purchase the advantage that by rights should be earned with dirt-time and archery practice are cheating themselves.  The time and dedication required to be a proficient hunter cannot be bought.  Spending $thousands at Cabela's on all manner of electronics, precision weapons, blinds/stands/scents/camo etc. may increase my "success" if measured in sausage, but likely won't increase it if measured by my level of satisfaction.  The point is that for me, the satisfaction comes throughout the process of developing skills, and can continue year 'round.

[pumatrax]

Kevin...I agree ; the respect goes to the man...I am more than just a little prejudiced to the trad shooters though...it truly is an art form...from the bowyers that make them to the people that shoot them...it's a brotherhood of people doing it the HARD WAY...nuff said by me; over and out...

[PaddyMac]

I think compound shooters are every bit as prideful as traditional bowhunters and they have the window decals to prove it.

Doesn't bother me a bit.  

Fourteen months ago I was one of them. I wasn't lazy. I wasn't an unethical hunter. I didn't love smacking a mule deer any less than I do now. I didn't bite the heads off baby rabbits or kick puppies. I didn't hoot and jeer every time I saw someone with a recurve. In fact, just the opposite. Every deer I killed with a compound was inside of 25 yards. And when I got rid of my last compound I didn't sprout wings and a halo.

I don't care for the bigger faster deadlier flames-and-sparks-and-explosions-and-electric-guitar way modern archery equipment is sold, but I understand it. They're talking to testosterone soaked 20 somethings who are looking for excitement. They're not talking to 50 year olds looking for something quiet and deep.

Right now there is a sea change going on in bowhunting with guys moving from wheel bows to trad. That's a very good thing. I hope it happens slowly. I'm just glad I woke up in time and nobody chased me away.

[bawana bowman]

Originally posted by PaddyMac:
 

I don't care for the bigger faster deadlier flames-and-sparks-and-explosions-and-electric-guitar way modern archery equipment is sold, but I understand it. They're talking to testosterone soaked 20 somethings who are looking for excitement. They're not talking to 50 year olds looking for something quiet and deep.

Right now there is a sea change going on in bowhunting with guys moving from wheel bows to trad. That's a very good thing. I hope it happens slowly. I'm just glad I woke up in time and nobody chased me away.

Couldn't agree more, except the marketing leads to things like this, which happened in the 2010 Archery season. Posted by me on PBS site 2 years ago:

What kind of information are Archery dealers giving people that are new to bowhunting?
Drove to a local WMA today after a call from my Nephew, needed help tracking a doe he shot early this morning. (He shoots compound and is becoming quite accomplished at taking game. I've Got nothing against it, that's how he chooses to hunt.)

After about 2 hours of tracking we found his doe and got her out to his truck.

When we arrived at the truck there were 2 hunters there taking an afternoon (Beer) break at the truck next to my Nephews. Both were sporting Brand new compounds complete with all the gizmos and gadgets. And the latest and greatest expandable broadheads.
Now for the sickening part..... Neither had ever shot their bows! Both bought them Friday, had dealer mount their sites and peep, slap on a quiver and nock point and they hit the woods Saturday before daylight.

Started talking with them about the effective range of their bows, and both agreed the dealer told them they were as accurate as a rifle out to 100 yards. Told them to just hold 1 of the 6 site pins on target and they couldn't miss, (as long as they used the right pin). Also went on to tell us how the dealer assured them each pin would be effective within a 10 yard range. I asked exactly what did that mean? They proceeded to explain to us how each pin would put the arrow inside a 6" circle for its set range. No need to site at the range, just set the pins equal distance apart inside the site and it's set.The 20 yard pin if held on target will hit within a 6" circle from 20 to 30 yards, the 30 will do the same out to 40 yards, and so forth. If we had 8 pins we would be good to 100 yards.

At this point my Nephew chose to head for the house to tend to his deer. I stayed behind a little longer to continue this enlightening conversation.
After another 15 minutes of these guys rewriting everything I have ever known about archery, I convinced them each to shoot at a sand pile a short distance away. Being the kind hearted person I am, I set one of their beer cans on the hill to shoot at. Told them the distance was 30 yards after walking it out and back to set the can.
They each took 2 shots..... closest only missed by 3 feet, 2 of the arrows were never found!
Finally convinced them to go and have someone teach them how to tune and shoot their bows before trying to hunt with them again this season. They thought maybe I was right about that.
As I was getting into my truck one of them said; "Maybe next year we'll be able to use a crossbow, no way I can miss with a red dot scope on my side!"

What kind of idiots are the so called outdoor shows and dollar hungry dealers turning loose in the woods with us?


I've been shooting Trad since I was 5 years old. 52 years now, was just called archery back then. Most all my friends in the 70's, 80's, and 90's  shot cable guns. I didn't care then and still don't care what they choose to shoot. As long as they are proficient with their weapon of choice.

But if you try to tell me my weapon is inferior, you better be willing to back up your words. I can put more arrows in to a kill zone faster than any cable guy, and in the past have out harvested them as far as ratio of kills to shots. And I don't have to waste time considering yardage of the shot being presented.

As long as others aren't like the idiots above, I don't care what they use. Just know how to use it, and let me do things my way.

[Wary Buck]

Ragnarok and Jeff Strubberg nailed my thoughts pretty much.

Most of my friends in this state (all of my family now) hunt with compounds, so I'm certainly not anti-compound.  

And I do think some folks are somewhat amazed when I show up at a local 3-D shoot before it really opens, get first in line so I don't have to wait for groups (or just skip the first couple targets while they look through their binoculars), and literally shoot 40 targets and return to my truck while some of the early arrivals are still warming up on the butts.  And I still have all my arrows.  

Ha.  What irks me is that guys who could have accessed the archery season all these years (and some tried but it was too hard) now do not need archery skills to access the archery season.  They wanted the access without the requisite work that went with it.  That is disappointing to me.

[Kevin Dill]

While agreeing with much of the sensible things said here, I have been reminded of something: Over the years and many trails I've walked, I have grown to be a bit intolerant of intolerance. Maybe that's bad...maybe not. I've just long ago angled away from using the man's tackle to judge the man. I've met a large number of "traditional bowhunters" (over a few decades) who I (personally) didn't think qualified to own their bows. I've kept these thoughts to myself however...the same way I do many other judgements.

I know that in camp, it's not the weapon I'm relating to: it's the man. That said, I've had just as much hunting philosophy in common with many wheel and firearm friends as single-stringers. The person determines what weapon they choose, and how they behave on the hunt. That in turn is what determines who I want to sit or hunt with. The presence of a custom bow and wooden arrows does little to convince me that I share hunting philosophies with its owner.

Lastly: While some trad folks are busy not liking the methods of "modern archery" and its users, I'm 100% sure the reverse applies...and why shouldn't it? "I saw a couple longbow shooters trying to shoot the 3D course today. Those guys were missing 25 yard shots completely, and gut-shooting things like crazy. They shouldn't let someone like that be in the woods. They are bad for hunting, and bad for our reputation as careful hunters and conservationists".

I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy thinking the actions if a few people cause the judgement of many.

[Duckbutt]

I think I agree more with what Kevin Dill is putting out here than anything I can articulate myself.  

I took little Miss Poundcake on our Youth Day hunt yesterday.  She is 10 years old and was hunting with a rifle.  She shot a small buck last year on youth day and the adults decided that kids that had killed a deer would have to follow the club management rules.  Well, a 4 point is the only deer we saw and she really wanted to shoot it.  The lessons/discussion on voluntary restraint ensued.  We covered some wonderful ground, sitting in that tree waiting on the light to disappear.  She has only shot longbows but wants to know when she can start bowhunting.  We discussed compound bows as an opportunity to start carrying a bow to the woods at a younger age to be able to ethically hunt with a bow.  Rifles and compounds have a role in developing hunters IMHO even if their ultimate destination is traditional archery.  Voluntary restraint, woodsmanship, conservation etc are all universal ethics that should be promoted by all "weapon camps."  None of my best friends hunt with Trad and they have taught me a LOT about hunting.  I hunt Trad exclusively because it is all that interests me.

On another note, our state just opened a bear season and the regulations exclude broadheads that aren't "expandable."  Who do you think that was directed towards?  I believe traditional archers will always be a minority and we need to vocally support all ethical hunting so that we have a leg to stand on when WE are discriminated against.

Dillbilly for President!

[Nattybumppo]

Originally posted by Buxndiverdux:
I was drawn to the longbow by a thirst for more of a challenge, only to find that I have felt like more of a true hunter than ever while carrying it. There is so much more of a spiritual side of things while hunting with Trad Gear. I feel more connected with God and nature in general. I completely realize that I'm still hunting with "technology" far superioir to what the Inidians carried, but it's still a stick and a string.
I took the challenge head on knowingly giving up at least 50% of my effective range to hunt with the long bow. It was my personal choice to do so. Noone forced me to choose the longbow.
So what I have a hard time understanding is all the hate for the other hunting tools? We have chosen a higher level of challenge but berate others for their accomplishments with "easier" equipment. How can that be construed as anything other than jealousy?
Hopefully this post can start a healthy debate without the elitist bashing and finger pointing.

I've never seen or experienced that in any of the places I frequent. Nor with any of my hunting buddies.

Now for myself I feel this way. I just don't care about others choices all that much... Doesn't bother me. As long as they don't bother me...

[Kevin Dill]

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
...little Miss Poundcake...  

That, my friend, tells me way more about what a guy is made of than any creation found in his hand. Thanks for putting a broad smile on my face this morning!

[cacciatore]

X3 what KDill said.

[Kevin Dill]

mis-clicked....

[tradtusker]

Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
While agreeing with much of the sensible things said here, I have been reminded of something: Over the years and many trails I've walked, I have grown to be a bit intolerant of intolerance. Maybe that's bad...maybe not. I've just long ago angled away from using the man's tackle to judge the man. I've met a large number of "traditional bowhunters" (over a few decades) who I (personally) didn't think qualified to own their bows. I've kept these thoughts to myself however...the same way I do many other judgements.

I know that in camp, it's not the weapon I'm relating to: it's the man. That said, I've had just as much hunting philosophy in common with many wheel and firearm friends as single-stringers. The person determines what weapon they choose, and how they behave on the hunt. That in turn is what determines who I want to sit or hunt with. The presence of a custom bow and wooden arrows does little to convince me that I share hunting philosophies with its owner.

Lastly: While some trad folks are busy not liking the methods of "modern archery" and its users, I'm 100% sure the reverse applies...and why shouldn't it? "I saw a couple longbow shooters trying to shoot the 3D course today. Those guys were missing 25 yard shots completely, and gut-shooting things like crazy. They shouldn't let someone like that be in the woods. They are bad for hunting, and bad for our reputation as careful hunters and conservationists".

I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy thinking the actions if a few people cause the judgement of many.

Could not have put it better Kevin.

I hunt with a lot of different weapons, and its interesting to see the different sides and reactions.
If i pull out the recurve, i take flak from the longbow guys and if i pull out the longbow i take flack from the recurves and selfbow hunters. If i pull out the compound i get flak from all the above, if i hunt with the muzzle loader  ect ..ect its Cloak and Dagger i tell you    

[Bowwild]

Before my wildlife career concluded in 2007 I spent 30 years as a "bowhunter/biologist" with increasing responsibility for evaluating and setting regulations.

Over the years I spoke to and corresponded with hunters from all walks of life, experience, and abilities. Very few were as avid, or thoughtful (my opinion) as many on this site.

However, most were upstanding folks I was proud to call hunters. A few though were so uninformed or knowingly irresponsible, I wouldn't want to share the field with them.  

A note: In a normal year KY Wildlife Officers will make about 150,000 license checks (hunters, anglers, and boaters). From these checks only about 12,000-13,000 citations are written with most of these being for  minor, careless infractions involving life-vests, boat driving, etc. This demonstrates that most sportsmen and women are upper tier in terms of abiding the law.

Some things I'ver learned:
--regulating ethics should be avoided except when the safety of others is at stake.

--hunters are often self-regulating when it comes to equipment choice and competence with same. In other words, the incompetent hunter will be unsuccessful and quit or get better. I admit some may do PR harm to our sport before they abandon their incompetent ways.

--There are folks that we are ashamed of and wouldn't choose to spend time with in all the equipment-user catergories -- as in nearly every other walk of life. Early in my career I was officed on a public gun range (Kingsbury FW Area near LaPorte, IN). Every year fellows would come in and ask for help loading their new mzzl. I've seen shotgun toters who would barely put 3 slugs on a 1/2 sheet of plywood at 50 yards and declare "Miller Time".

The good news is that poor examples of sportsmen and women are the minority. Except for a stupid headline or two they do no long-term,  broad-scale harm to the sport, our passion of hunting.

Unfortunatley I can report that I've witnessed otherwise fantastic bowhunters come to FW Commission meetings and make such rude, disrespectful, and sometimes bigotted comments(against other hunters)that they hurt the very sport they love. To some regulators we bowhunters, especially the "traditionalist", are seen as selfish, intolerant, and arrogant. I have no doubt, there have been decisions that hurt the majority of bowhunters to spite a couple who went on a public tirade.  

I can't tell you how many times I've had to "talk a decision-maker down" by reminding them that bowhunters are the most avid, hunt-loving, and law-abiding sportsmen in the field. We buy lots of equipment, spend much time hunting, and generally support our FW agencies. Oh, and we don't mind killing lots of does and cows!

One of the things we can do to promote ourselves and our passion is to relish the hunt, enjoy the kill, and be tolerant of those who have no interest or understanding how to milk as much of the hunting experience as we do.  

Every chance you get respectfully make a point of examples of law-abiding, positive ethics-driven hunter behavior.

That SC example of expandle-only heads???!! Did I read that right? Fixed-blade heads aren't allowed in SC Bear season?  I'm not an expandable head basher but in the case of thick, long bear hair I'd think just the opposite.

I am appalled and wish I could say I'm surprised, but in this case I can't.  

I am concerned that while most staff of state wildlife agencies are in-the-know sportsmen and women, too many people who have no understanding of how hunting and hunters tick are joining these ranks.

I never hired or promoted a non-hunter (except clerical). Would a car dealer hire a salesperson that doesn't drive?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Doc Noc Quote  

Aside from that, I've seen rancor on both sides... where compound shooters, at a club OPEN shoot once ridiculed my group for having fun and laughing while they were "concentrating"--- and told us to shush! [Eek!]  

I've been following the posts and taking it all in here, wondering where it would go.....

When i saw this one, i had to post because this happened to me almost exactly.

I say "almost" because i was in the group behind the trad archers shooting with a compound bow with few young guys that had next years IBO freestyle champion ambitions. These guys were good shooters too, but were so serious about every shot it was taking a lot of the enjoyment out of it i was looking for.

As these guys mumbled and complained about not being able to concentrate with those guys ahead of us roaring with laughter, i realized i was going to have a lot more fun if i joined that group..... So i did...

There were 3 guys shooting home made long bows, and they were having a ball! when i asked if i could join their group, these guys didn't give my compound bow much thought at all except saying " How bout you shoot first, so we got a spot to focus on."  

After a couple targets all of these guys asked if i wanted to try their long bows out, and of course i did....and i could see right now why they were having so much fun. This stick and string stuff was tougher than it looked to get those arrows where you wanted them... The hook was set.

That was the turning point for me. And not so many years ago either. i sold my fancy compound bow two weeks later and bought a band saw.....      

When i showed up in Elk camp the next fall with the first long bow i ever built, the guys thought I'd lost my mind....Since then I've built a few more bows and let the guys shoot them. Some of these guys i hunt with now are finally seeing the lure of a stick and string themselves...

I had to share that story with you Doc... hopefully a few others enjoyed it. Bottom line is that this brought a lot more FUN into the sport for me. I've always enjoyed a good challenge.      Kirk