Point weight and tuning thoughts...

[Mark Baker]

I really try and keep silent about this very thing, all the time.  And do pretty well, I might add.   I know it's just "human nature" to tinker, but some of you have a real disease about it.   Really.  

Most of us shoot critters at 20 yards and less.  A whole lot of arrow problems can be solved with a little more feather at that range, and have no difference in accuracy.   And the benefits are straight flying arrows....and all that goes with that!  And surprisingly, most of the arrows I own will shoot from most of the bows I own (and there's a bunch) equally as well, regardless of weight.  Building and shooting selfbows has taught me a whole lot about achieving good arrow flight over the past two decades, and maximizing my bows potential.   It really is'nt rocket science...in fact it's "prehistoric".  So if you like tinkering...oh well.   I like to have my mind at ease so I can concentrate on the real task at hand...shooting game.  The less confusion I can interject in the shooting process, the easier the rest is.   Keep it simple.  No better advice has ever been offered.

[Ground Hunter]

A lot of this technical stuff tells me that they lack confidence in their equipment.  They need to shoot their bows.  Learn their equipment.  Stop "hunting by computer" and loose some real arrows.  It would not hurt them to read a book on the subject instead of fishing for "advice" on the internet.  Advice that's likely from someone who knows less than they do.  They want some "edge" like this is some kind of competition so they can "win."  This is bowhunting.  You don't get a parade.

[onewhohasfun]

The only tuning advice I really ever needed I read in one of Fred Bears books. "Broadhead tipped arrows need big helical feathers."

[hockey7]

All I know is that I use the same Axis 400's for every bow I own. I can shoot 165gr on up to 225gr...I only adjust the arrow length.
Three 4" helical shields, and I have no problems tuning my arrow to my bows. KISS principle.

[overbo]

I'm guilty of it and it comes from reading books and getting advice.15grs of point weight really make a noticeable difference?Yes,when shooting bareshafts past 20yrds.I do beleive one must develope consistant shooting form before getting into bareshaft tunning.
I sure don't know anything about this Stu's thing but seems to be about how to get the proper tuned arro on paper instead of going afeild w/ the bow shooting???I guess I'm too old school.I rely on shooting my bow to tune it.

[Owlgrowler]

Depends on the bow. If I tune up my high-performance recurve with carbon arrows and then had you slip in some that were 20 grs. lighter and others were 20grs. heavier I would be able to tell you which were which after shooting them. And not because the heavier ones drop...which I don't think they do, I can tell by the way they fly and where they impact the target. I fine-tune all my hunting arrows because I feel it's the right thing to do.

On the other hand I have bows that I can feed a bunch of different weight/spine arrows and they'll eat em all.

Wood also seems to make an arrow more "forgiving", I never even bother bare-shafting them. Or maybe it's because I do use a lot of feather on em.

[Jeff Strubberg]

I get detail oriented for one reason...so I can forget about all this stuff when I am making a shot.

I don't want to wonder about my equipment.  I have enough variables wondering about ME!

[beendare]

Originally posted by Steve O:
So, I wonder.  Is anybody real good with Stu Miller's calculator? It is too complicated for me        

How finely does it predict the spine?  Is it to the pound or thousandth of a pound?  How much does 15 grains change the spine I wonder???

 

Fairly new to trad equipment and from my perspective the Stu Miller calculator is a gift from the gods. Maybe not so much to dial in your setup to the grain but as a tool to look at different combos and get it close.

 It answers the question; If I add 100 gr inserts do I need to go up a size.

I do know that some of the pro compound guys claim to be able to tell the difference right at 6 grains or so on long 60 yd shots

[wapiti792]

Steve, very good thread. I think we drive ourselves crazy with tinkering...I have been guilty of it some too. We got into shooting single-stringers to get away from some of that crazy stuff.

Here are some of my observations:
1. If I tinker too much, I shoot too much at one time. I end up getting tired, my form goes to hell, and I tune more. It is like groundhog day...

2. When I make a move-ANY MOVE- as far as changing equipment, I make one move. Say a point weight adjustment or a different feather cut. Any more than that I end up back at observation number 1.

The weight of a dollar bill, now that's a feat. I find when I start tinkering the dollar bills that I send down range disappear into the same black hole unmatched socks in the dryer, inkpens when you really need one and my favorite pocketknives go  

[30coupe]

Unless you are right on the edge in terms of spine, 15 or 20 grains won't be noticeable. I think most bows have a much broader spine range than any of us can imagine (or notice).

I like to test my broadhead tipped arrows for tune by shooting them. If they have stable flight (no wagging or porpoising) and hit where I point them, they are tuned. Bare shafting, even with the same weight field point as your broadhead, might tell you that your spine is right, but it doesn't mean your broadheads will fly the same. Ya gotta shoot 'em!

For instance, my recently acquired Shelton bare shafted with 28" 2016s and 225 grain field points perfectly. I made up some El Grandes with steel adapters that weight 225 grains. At 15 yards they flew great but consistently hit about 4-6" right of my aiming point. I switched to a long aluminum adapter (about 42 grains) which dropped me to just a shade over 200 grains up front. They still flew like darts, but hit to point of aim from 10 to 20 yards. Had I just assumed that the bare shaft field points were going to give me the same results with the broadheads, I might have made a disastrous shot on game. So, 20 grains can make a difference, I guess.

[Manitoba Stickflinger]

Bang on Steve!

Funny that I can add a pile of weight to the tip and they fly well but reducing the tip weight significantly hinders my flight.

If my tuned arrows carry 200 grian tips, I can shoot them with 300 grain stumpers covered in mud and get great flight, but with 100 grain clean tips not get good flight.

Perhaps for me and my shooting style/release, a weak arrow just works or manages to recover better than a stiff one. As far as 15-25 grains difference....can't notice!

[AdAstraAiroh]

I find that Stu Millers claculator has allowed me to experiment with arrow length, spine and point weight variation and then purchase arrows that are similar in dynamic spine.  This means I am not wasting money, and yet optimizing my chances at being able to get comparable tuned arrows for my bow set-up.

Although relatively new to traditional archery, I can certainly see a change in my arrows if I alter point weight by 20 grains in either direction.  I have a very high performance longbow with a 30+ draw, and the arrows will fly differently, hit in a slightly different horizontal location, and impact into the target with a different shaft orientation.  This is very easy to see as distances increase greater than 35 yards to the target.

Mark

[Montanawidower]

Good thought Steve O,  I couldn't agree more.  

I also totally agree stickflinger's comment.  

I attribute it to draw length and release.  There are so many form issues that rob bow efficiency.  I think an arrow that is slightly weak compensates nicely.  

If you are tuned slightly stiff... those variables will become obvious more often.  

I would also like to add that I think some patience should be extended those who are asking redundant questions.  

To many of us, we have read it million times and its exhausting.   However students always begin at the same place.  One of the stages in development is obsessing over minutia.  (Or feeling the right bow/setup will make you a better archer. )

IMO, thousands of arrows makes you a better archer.   There is no substitute.

[Steve O]

Well...now we are cooking    


So, here is another tidbit to ponder...

I was visiting with Roger Rothaarr a few years ago.  We were out in his yard shooting.  He was talking and I   WAS listening!  He came across a very old aluminum shaft with a big ol' Snuffer on it buried in some tall grass.  He proceeded to nock that arrow up and sink it right into the center of one of his targets.

I came home and went to work.  If you are tuned, you can shoot a broadhead (and I did do it out to 20 yards not over 30 like Roger did)bare shaft.

You guys that can tell a dollar bill worth of weight difference in your shooting...how do your broadheads fly bare shaft?  Find a SAFE place and give it a try.

Please don't get me wrong.  I am   not saying tuning is not important.  I have helped many guys tune, it is very, very important!

What I am saying is, if your arrow flight is affected by 15 grains of point weight, there probably other factors to look at...

[Steve O]

Originally posted by Montanawidower:


I would also like to add that I think some patience should be extended those who are asking redundant questions..

Absolutely!  This was in no way meant to belittle anyone.  Not at all.  Only to stimulate some discussion.  Sometimes as an engineer, my words are too direct, so please, never take anything I say as something other than positive.    

[Bigriver]

If I have the ability to get my set up matched exactly with no real work involved, why wouldn`t I do that? I can`t see where that would indicate I have a lack of confidence in my equipment. I would argue it is a simple no brainer. Yes, with my carbons I can tell a 15 grain difference in point weight. I can also tell if I cut them a finch. Poi & arrow flight change, for me. And yes, I have shot a few arrows.

[Tim]

Hey Steve,

I do a ton of tuning and fine tuning, I just find it very enjoyable and obviously a challenge with some bows.  I may start off with bare shafting and adjusting arrow length and tip weight to get me close.  I'll then move onto paper tuning and fiddling with the silencers.  Once I have everything as close as possible I right it down, like most folks do.

I help instruct several buddies who are new to this type of equipment and you'd be amazed at how difficult it is to tune their bows. Their releases, draw lengths and finger pressures etc are all over the place at times.  I've found myself having to tune and retune their bows.  The easiest way to teach them consistency is the chronograph.  Sometimes their arrow speeds may vary 6 fps from arrow to arrow and they thing every shot felt the same. A good tool, if you're into that stuff.  

With that in mind 20 grains on the tip end or nock end in the form of an arrow wrap can make a difference.  Not nearly as noticeable with bows that are cut past center but on some longbows yes.  Enough to miss at 10 yards, definitely not.  However, if you short draw 1/2 inch and hang your fingers up slightly.....along with an arrow that's heavier on the end.  You may just miss, oh well, shoot another one!  That's what I do  

[Tim]

Steve........me again.

I love to talk about this stuff. The biggest factor in consistency is the shooter.  If folks would spend time 10 minutes each day striving to shoot 10 perfect arrows at 5 feet you'd be amazed at the increase in accuracy.  

The biggest culprit for poor accuracy is not 20 grains, it's changing bows, arrows, anchor points etc.  We all "including myself" have this incredible urge to continually change something.       Whether it be in our equipment or form.

[Swamp Yankee]

I would suggest that if a 20 grain difference really mattered it would be almost impossible to get broadheads to fly the same as field points on the same arrow.  As mentioned above, broadheads lengthen the dynamic length of the shaft; thereby weakening it compared to the same shaft with a field point.  I remember this "problem" being addressed back in the 70's with special field points designed to maintain the same weight, length and weight distribution as their matching broadheads.  My guess is we no longer see them because they fixed a "problem" that didn't exist.
In my experience, the problem is real with many high performance compound bows, but I've not experienced it to any noticable degress with recurves or longbows.
No substitution in my book for practicing with broadheads during the hunting season; and yes, with the same equipment!

[Ground Hunter]

Steve

The other issue is that most will not know who Roger Rothaarr is.